Annual Megabattle thread of dooom.

[Chase]

The can of worms has certainly been opened... Hooray!


Please consider where we are coming from as organizers for this event.  Among many other things, we want to run a clean, fair event that is made up of two distinct, different sides.  We defined those two sides as "Order" and "Disorder" year one, and in conversation they have been called "Order" and "Chaos" since.  I'm not going to take the time to list which army we view as aligned to what side because I think we all know where they stand anyways.

Derek and I share the opinion that it is pretty lame to have Imperial Guard armies (using the Imperial Guard Codex, and all of it's options) fighting for the side of "Disorder" and against the side of "Order" in the Megabattle.  We think it's lame to have Space Wolves (using the Space Wolf Codex, options, etc) fighting for the side of "Disorder" and against the side of "Order" in the Megabattle.  We also think it's lame to have Space Marines (using the Space Marine Codex, options, etc) fighting for the side of "Disorder" and against the side of "Order".

In all of these instances we have the "good guys" (that we can't call good guys because of the nature of the game) fighting WITH the "bad guys" and bringing all of their options with them.  If the bad guys get all the bad guy stuff AND all, most of, even some of the good guy stuff what's the point of having a separation between sides?  If the "Disorder" side is going to collectively make use of a handful of "Order" codices, should the opposite be made an option to the "Order" players?  If so, what's the point in dividing the sides based on our definition of "Order" vs "Disorder"?  It defeats the purpose.

The problem we run into is that 40k seems to have one story for every single army combination out there.  I'm sure if I spoke with Josh Tufts he could tell me about a story of some ridiculous Imperium psycher that was somehow able to manipulate some Tyranids at one point 10000 years before the Horus Heresy.  Because of this, should Tyranids be allowed to play on the side of "Order"?  I positive the Orks have fought alongside the Imperials against Chaos at some point in 40k fluff, history, or whatever.  Should we allow Paul to play his Orks with Nick and his Ultra Marines?  Again, I'm sure theres a story for each and every combination out there somewhere...  Chaos apparently fights Chaos all the time, can Rich take his Chaos Demons and line up right next to Seth's Demon Hunters and assault Lee's Plague Marines who just happened to be backed up by "renegade" Tau rail guns?  It all seems so stupid and super lame to me.  It's why we decided to theme the Megabattle in the first place.

At what point to we stop this, or reel it in, such that the sides remain unique, different, and fair?  It's extremely important to remain and maintain consistency on each choice we make in these situations.  I think people fail to see the importance of that.

We want an "Order" vs "Disorder" Megabattle.  We have defined what we think that means.  We really want to stick to it.  Exceptions were made year 1 based on the need to keep the number of players per side even.  Much fewer were made last year... off the top I can't really think of anyone that even played a "renegade" list.


Please understand what sort of position this puts us in.  Telling one person, "Sure use XYZ, it makes sense and the models clearly reflect what you were trying to do" and the turning around and saying, "No, that's lame.  We don't want to see that type of thing" to another person totally sucks, is inconsistent, and sends at LEAST one person away with a bad taste in their mouth.  It's a lose / lose situation for Derek and I.  The Megabattle is full of these types of choices for us, so please understand that.

What we WANT is for the "Order" side to use rule books from only the "Order" side and for "Disorder" to use rule books from only the "Disorder" side.  This seems impossible to attain without someone being less than pleased.

If it were one person who was coming to us with an army that CLEARLY looks, feels, and reflects the intent to be "traitor" or "renegade" or whatever then MAYBE it's a different story.  This year, however, that is not the case.


At this point I'd like to see the community debate this a little bit.

Tell me why it's okay, fair, and makes sense based on what Derek and I want to see out of the Megabattle.

Is there a solution that is okay, fair, and makes sense?

Should we care about pleasing everybody and/or being consistent?  Can I tell Ian that because his list was planned and intended to be a traitor list since before he bought any of the models that it's cool that he fights for "Disorder"?  Can I, at the same time, tell Troy and Rick that they need to fight for "Order"?

The issues run a bit deeper than playing with friends, whether or not the fluff supports it, and what we'd like to see.  We are also very concerned with one side having X options and the other side effectively having X+Y options.


Let's hear it.

[Chase]

And to the point about fluff, is the concept of traitor wolves thematically detrimental to the game to a greater extent than say unpainted armies?

Yes.

Unpainted models have nothing to do with the *theme* of the Megabattle.  They just aren't allowed because we want the Megabattle to LOOK cool.


Traitor armies for the sake of being traitor armies is lame.  People saying that their army is "traitor" or even justifying it (which appears to be pretty easy in 40k) so that they can play with friend instead of against them is not in the spirit of the event.  I understand the desire to do so, but it is not in the spirit of the event.

[Chase]

Playing a giant  "counts as" army can be lame.

On the other hand

Playing a giant "count as" army can be rad.

It's like when people use models which are scratch built and awesome and others do it and it looks like a kid's toy with a bad paint job.

I agree with this, and I was going to use the same analogy. 

Although in the case of playing one army on "the other side" I think it's a lot more complicated.

[Grand Master Steve]

My opinion on this issue is as follows. If you paid lots of money and pent lots of time on peices to look "chaos" then thats awsome. Do I think they should get every peice of gear from an imperial codex? No. Chaos imperial guard look awsome and fun but like Chaos Space Marines they are in the eye of terror and have not had acess to imperial standard equipment for centuries. Likewise they have not been able to maintain certain equipment due to lack of resorces either. My Opinion? The ONLY way I can see chaos imperial guard is changing the stuff they have access to from Codex Imperial guard and the apocolyps books. That is a logistics night mare and if some one can pull off a fair way of ruling what Lost and Damned (aka Traitor Guard aka Chaos Guard) then have at it. Do I think people who legit spent lots of time and money making such armies be punished? No. But I do see the point Derrek and Chase have made. It is not fair nor is it in the spirit of the fluff for Chaos to have access to everything the imperium does. This is why its 2 different codecies for the marines. The fluff for chaos says they have been away in the Eye of Terror and in the Warp Cut off from Imperial Supply lines. They cant replicate everything nore upkeep what they took with them when they went chaos. The best way to handle Lost and the Damned im my opinion is to use the Eye of Terror Codex and house update the armory to reflect the rules changes in 5th eddition. As for any one else who has clearly imperial armies and wants to call them chaos? Sorry no. There is a clear cut allies page in the apoc rule book which for the most part draws a line between Order and Disorder. If you want your marines to be chaos that badly then buy a chaos marine army. Want chaos imperial guard? Then start doing amazing conversions or get on the horn with forge world and try to help find rules that can accomidate the spirit of the game. I can already tell right now there are people upset over the call Derrek and Chase have made. Well then help make a solution. My idea of using Codex Eye of Terror for traitor guard with some house rules may be one. Of coarse I could be Wrong. I appologise to any one I may have offended when posting this opinion it is just that an opinion about a game please dont take it personaly.

[Moosifer]

My opinion on this issue is as follows. If you paid lots of money and pent lots of time on peices to look "chaos" then thats awsome. Do I think they should get every peice of gear from an imperial codex? No. Chaos imperial guard look awsome and fun but like Chaos Space Marines they are in the eye of terror and have not had acess to imperial standard equipment for centuries. Likewise they have not been able to maintain certain equipment due to lack of resorces either. My Opinion? The ONLY way I can see chaos imperial guard is changing the stuff they have access to from Codex Imperial guard and the apocolyps books. That is a logistics night mare and if some one can pull off a fair way of ruling what Lost and Damned (aka Traitor Guard aka Chaos Guard) then have at it. Do I think people who legit spent lots of time and money making such armies be punished? No. But I do see the point Derrek and Chase have made. It is not fair nor is it in the spirit of the fluff for Chaos to have access to everything the imperium does. This is why its 2 different codecies for the marines. The fluff for chaos says they have been away in the Eye of Terror and in the Warp Cut off from Imperial Supply lines. They cant replicate everything nore upkeep what they took with them when they went chaos. The best way to handle Lost and the Damned im my opinion is to use the Eye of Terror Codex and house update the armory to reflect the rules changes in 5th eddition. As for any one else who has clearly imperial armies and wants to call them chaos? Sorry no. There is a clear cut allies page in the apoc rule book which for the most part draws a line between Order and Disorder. If you want your marines to be chaos that badly then buy a chaos marine army. Want chaos imperial guard? Then start doing amazing conversions or get on the horn with forge world and try to help find rules that can accomidate the spirit of the game. I can already tell right now there are people upset over the call Derrek and Chase have made. Well then help make a solution. My idea of using Codex Eye of Terror for traitor guard with some house rules may be one. Of coarse I could be Wrong. I appologise to any one I may have offended when posting this opinion it is just that an opinion about a game please dont take it personaly.

Steve, I hate to rain on your parade, but the concept of the traitor guard is absolutely nothing like the lost and the damned.  Traitor Guard are the units/armies that feel as though the Emperor has failed them/fallen to chaos/been tricked into serving the will of the chaos gods.  If you would like examples of fallen guard, please read up on your steel legion history and also about the death korp of krieg.

I don't understand why everyone is in a tizzy over "traitor guard".  I was going to do traitor guard, but in respect to those folks who are playing it the regular way, I was going to forgo the idea of the unique characters for the megabattle, because in a setting like this, we are looking at it being more unfluffy than before.  But moreso than doing it in name, I was working on coverting models to bear the fruits of the lord of desire, as well as including their Conductor Lucius with the force.  I think the likelihood of a unit(army/company) falling to chaos is pretty well documented with the advent of the Commissar, Priest, and Inquisitor.

Being that as it may, I cannot attend the event in its current form, so the point for me is moot.  People should go into this thinking about having fun themselves, not worrying too much about whether or not player X has an army that you feel as though doesnt playing on X side.

[Grand Master Steve]

My opinion on this issue is as follows. If you paid lots of money and pent lots of time on peices to look "chaos" then thats awsome. Do I think they should get every peice of gear from an imperial codex? No. Chaos imperial guard look awsome and fun but like Chaos Space Marines they are in the eye of terror and have not had acess to imperial standard equipment for centuries. Likewise they have not been able to maintain certain equipment due to lack of resorces either. My Opinion? The ONLY way I can see chaos imperial guard is changing the stuff they have access to from Codex Imperial guard and the apocolyps books. That is a logistics night mare and if some one can pull off a fair way of ruling what Lost and Damned (aka Traitor Guard aka Chaos Guard) then have at it. Do I think people who legit spent lots of time and money making such armies be punished? No. But I do see the point Derrek and Chase have made. It is not fair nor is it in the spirit of the fluff for Chaos to have access to everything the imperium does. This is why its 2 different codecies for the marines. The fluff for chaos says they have been away in the Eye of Terror and in the Warp Cut off from Imperial Supply lines. They cant replicate everything nore upkeep what they took with them when they went chaos. The best way to handle Lost and the Damned im my opinion is to use the Eye of Terror Codex and house update the armory to reflect the rules changes in 5th eddition. As for any one else who has clearly imperial armies and wants to call them chaos? Sorry no. There is a clear cut allies page in the apoc rule book which for the most part draws a line between Order and Disorder. If you want your marines to be chaos that badly then buy a chaos marine army. Want chaos imperial guard? Then start doing amazing conversions or get on the horn with forge world and try to help find rules that can accomidate the spirit of the game. I can already tell right now there are people upset over the call Derrek and Chase have made. Well then help make a solution. My idea of using Codex Eye of Terror for traitor guard with some house rules may be one. Of coarse I could be Wrong. I appologise to any one I may have offended when posting this opinion it is just that an opinion about a game please dont take it personaly.

Steve, I hate to rain on your parade, but the concept of the traitor guard is absolutely nothing like the lost and the damned.  Traitor Guard are the units/armies that feel as though the Emperor has failed them/fallen to chaos/been tricked into serving the will of the chaos gods.  If you would like examples of fallen guard, please read up on your steel legion history and also about the death korp of krieg.

I don't understand why everyone is in a tizzy over "traitor guard".  I was going to do traitor guard, but in respect to those folks who are playing it the regular way, I was going to forgo the idea of the unique characters for the megabattle, because in a setting like this, we are looking at it being more unfluffy than before.  But moreso than doing it in name, I was working on coverting models to bear the fruits of the lord of desire, as well as including their Conductor Lucius with the force.  I think the likelihood of a unit(army/company) falling to chaos is pretty well documented with the advent of the Commissar, Priest, and Inquisitor.

Being that as it may, I cannot attend the event in its current form, so the point for me is moot.  People should go into this thinking about having fun themselves, not worrying too much about whether or not player X has an army that you feel as though doesnt playing on X side.

As I said in my post rick it was an idea. I also indicated that if you truely want "traitor guard" then contribute ideas on how the army can work other then lost and the damned. Personaly I dont have any clue. As my "reading up" Im well read in the books. Almost ALL of them have the traitor guard be rouge P.D.F with Just guardsmen and almost nothing else. Derreks point is disorder should not always have an open vault to order's armory. which would mean not having a carbon copy of codex Imperial guard at your dispossal. Yes traitor guard do happen as chase said in his post but not all the time. I dont know about steel legion but last time I checked Death Korp had a long civil war on their home world but oh look they still serve the Emperor in the end. So no sorry Rick I dont see an example there. Also in my example and in the Kreig both the trador P.D.F / Gurad and Kreig still dont have everything normal codex guard have.

[jesterofthedark]

Now I would like to chime in with sage advice......

hmmmm..... I ummm..... well you know when you consider....

awww darn. I've got nothing.

I THINK EVERYTHING SHOULD CONTEST!  

It was stated before that during the test battles the gloves were off, and its was not as bad as one would have thought.  I do think that it would become somewhat over whelming for a newer player, but that is where the vets come in to help.

[Chase]

Being that as it may, I cannot attend the event in its current form, so the point for me is moot.  People should go into this thinking about having fun themselves, not worrying too much about whether or not player X has an army that you feel as though doesnt playing on X side.

Huh?  Why can't you attend and what is the events current form?

Also, this is not a reaction to players complaining at all.  It's a reaction we have had to what we've seen in the past, dealt with, and what we are seeing this year.

[the_trooper]

First off, Leman Russes can't take Daemonic Possession or Oh boy, you guys would be screwed.  

Secondly, here goes-

Traitor Guard is not Lost and the Damned.  The Servants of Slaughter, Servants of Decay and Renegade Militia lists from FW are not lost and the damned.  It comes pretty close in some ways but at the end of the day, they are neutered thematic lists which lose some things in 5th edition and were based off the old 3rd ed Imperial Guard codex.  Yeah, I roll these lists in friendly games. They are outdated, hardly functioning where certain tweaks tend to be applied so they aren't rail roaded.

Since the IA5 lists mentioned above used the 3rd ed imperial guard codex as a guide, one could assume that using the new imperial guard codex to represent renegade guard would be a logical jump.  

Renegade Guard are a staple in 40k.  Remember, there was only 1 Vraks to produce a Vraksian Apostate Preacher to bring about a Vraksian Rebellion filled with Vraksian Renegade Militiamen which was later annihilated.  (Represented in an almost scenario like way in the Servants of Slaughter, Servants of Decay and Renegade Militia lists)

There are hundreds of worlds where guard turn renegade, take their equipment and follow chaos.  Since the removal of the Eye of Terror codex and the lists contained, there have been many players, myself included, who have been looking for a way to better represent a band of ordinary men that worship chaos.  Millions of men turn from the Imperium and join Chaos or some permutation of it.  The great story and theme behind chaos is that it is everywhere, not just in huge bloodthirsters or 10,000 year old Chaos Lords but in men.  Lunatics that  join chaos because they were left outside the light of the Imperium too long.  I could go on but then it would get even nerdier and deeper into my fluff dungeons.

Do I think traitor guard should be allowed?  Yes.  Should there be limitations?  Yes.  The limitations should be as follows:  Modelling and Special Characters.
Since Apocalypse allows for using multiple codecies, there is no reason to worry about having a close combat monster as your HQ as the Daemon Prince/Chaos Lord / Some jerk with an 8 pointed star on his head has come for his flock.  A requirement of some chaos HQ must be taken.

Modelling:  It must be chaos.   It comes in all flavors and views and that's what is great about chaos.  My renegade guard are modeled to be ramshackle followers of chaos with little adornment save for a few hastily inscribed chaos markings and crude paint on starts on the vehicles.  Some take it further and more Lost and the Damned like puts spikes on everything.  Those would be opposite stylistically but convey the same idea.  The army must look like it has fallen to chaos and have it be obvious.

Special Characters:  I would remove the ability to remove the ability to take some some of the characters like say Creed.  He stopped the rebellion on Cadia where a horde of Imperial Guardsmen went Chaos.  Obviously out.   I'm not too familiar with the other characters except for Pask () and well you can read through and see if any could be represented in a chaotic way but to keep it simple, you could lean toward just not allowing them for renegade guard.

Renegade Space Wolves...
You have to take Huron and have to use the CSM codex to represent the army.  The CSM codex can do much of what the Wolf codex can do and it keeps things from going weird.  You could use your models, just not the codex.
This ultimately depends on the ambiguity of the paint job.  Huron Blackheart was / is a pirate. He runs around raiding while forcing people to join his cause or killing them.  Space Wolves joined him because they did not want to die.  Thus breaking their resolve and knowing fear.

Renegade Space Marines...
The new Chaos Space Marines book is just that- Renegade Space Marines.  With the removal of the cult rules and ancient enemies and other theme base rules removed, it is implied to be played with a certain type of all inclusive chaos where all 4 cult squad types could be in the same army.   So it covers the play styles of lots of people but keeps things on the Chaos rules set.  Have lots of drop pods but a pretty ambiguous paint job?  Counts as Dreadclaws and play as undivided chaos.  Big gold proudly displayed aquilas need not apply.

Oh and remember- As per the Apocalypse rule book, Chaos has access to all Imperial Datasheets.  Some can be represented properly as they are single and self contained models like the Titans, fliers, etc. but others can only be made up of Imperial only selections.  An example of this would be the Assault Force of the Ancients would be impossible for Chaos to take since it contains a tech priest.

TL;DR
The imperial armor renegade lists are outdated and barely functional as a stand alone list
Space Marine players should don spikes if they want to hang with the spikey marines
Creed does not work for Chaos, yo.

[Rurouni Benshin]

IMPORTANT NOTE!!!

Due to a scheduling conflict at the venue, the Megabattle date has been moved to Saturday, March 20th.

I LOVE YOU, DEREK!!! 

Looks like Captain Sicarius' 2nd Company will be making it afterall!   

[the_trooper]

Be kind on the eyes, ladies, break up that text.  Nothing can be more daunting and painful to read besides a wall o' text. /net etiquette


EDIT:

The Eye of Terror Codex will not work as a solution at all.  The only way to make it work is by bringing back he 3.5 edition Chaos Codex.  That alone is not something people want, trust me.

[Moosifer]

Being that as it may, I cannot attend the event in its current form, so the point for me is moot.  People should go into this thinking about having fun themselves, not worrying too much about whether or not player X has an army that you feel as though doesnt playing on X side.

Huh?  Why can't you attend and what is the events current form?

Also, this is not a reaction to players complaining at all.  It's a reaction we have had to what we've seen in the past, dealt with, and what we are seeing this year.

I cannot attend due to my participation in a wedding.  Nothing to do with what is to going on, I told you this last monday

[Lady GaGa]

Dave and I are in the opinion of take what you want.  We'll just blow it up so it won't be a problem.

[Battleground]

There was a long, long discussion at the store tonight and I feel as though much progress was made in helping us decide an outcome that will be acceptable for everyone. Please continue to discuss this in this thread, though. Your opinions are extremely important to me.

[Ian Mulligan]

If a player has gone out of his way to model and paint his army as traitors and it doesnt kick REASONABLE fluff in the fucking balls, I fail to see the problem.

If the force a player wants to play doesn't have an official list (Adeptus Mechanicus, Traitor Guardsmen) and they choose a codex to represent their force and it doesnt kick REASONABLE fluff in the fucking balls, I fail to see the problem.