Author Topic: How to get the 40K Events you want  (Read 5467 times)

fiesta0618

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Re: How to get the 40K Events you want
« Reply #15 on: September 16, 2014, 02:48:58 PM »
That is a wall of text that even I as a seasoned player look at and go, "Meh." At heart a tournament is supposed to be a few rounds of 40k with scores for winning, playing nice, and looking nice. This whole thing is overly concerned with specifics and it makes me not really want to bother, because it is clear the community has a VERY specific way to play.


There are a couple of problems with the request that the description be more concise, I think.

First, the game itself is so open-ended (Not a bad thing!) that you NEED to establish ground rules before every game you play anyway.  Writing them all up-front is actually a good thing, since it saves you from having to come to independent agreements at the beginning of every round.  It's an effort to save time, not an arbitrary set of restrictions.  Look at your own description of events: "a few rounds of 40k with scores for winning, playing nice, and looking nice."

Scores.  How will they be scored?  It can't be simply subjective, since that's not much fun and not very fair (think of Gymnastics or Dancing or Figure Skating--there's always a huge argument about the quality of the judging).  For objective scoring, you need some kind of standardization.  And here we are, back at square 1, with this list of guidelines.  If we get rid of the guidelines, we'll have to abandon the scores...which sounds like Thursday 40k night at BG, or Sunday at the Bunker.  It's a great time, you play whatever game you feel like, but it isn't an "event" in the strictest sense.

Second, if you don't post that stuff up-front, people WILL miss the info and show up with something unsuitable. Heck, I'm sure a number of folks already don't read it carefully!  My day job is as a technical writer and trainer, so trust me, you can never reach everyone even with the simplest words and obvious presentation.

It seems the best thing that BG can do to draw in and please the maximum number of players is what has already been suggested--hold different kinds of events.  Some will be "classic," and cater to tournament players.  Some will be "fun," like Tanksgiving, or Boots-on-the-Ground, and cater to people who want to try something different. 

In all cases, though, the event description will need all of the fine print.  Always.  If you're unwilling to read the rules of the event (it actually isn't that long, its just that the formatting of the forum makes it look that way), then, honestly, it seems you aren't actually that interested.  That's not an indictment, judgement, or accusation of you in any way, but if you aren't that interested to begin with then there isn't much that the BG guys can do.

TL;DR:   
1) Sam and Chase already do an excellent job with the logistics of events, and we can't realistically change it much. 
2)The only feasible way to drive wide interest is by having variation in event format. 
3)BG doesn't have the time or tools to generate interest from nothing--they can only leverage the interest that is already there. See #2.



DonRonaldo

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Re: How to get the 40K Events you want
« Reply #16 on: September 16, 2014, 04:02:46 PM »
Thanks everyone for keeping this really positive and on topic...I'm sure you all know threads around here haven't done that for a while. Hearing the things people want to do has me much more excited for future events than hearing the gripe of the month does.  Please be assured that the BG folks have seen this and take the opinions seriously.  If you aren't sharing here, please feel free to talk to them when you're in the store and let them know what events you'd like to see competitive or fun.  They take feedback seriously and want for the events to be enjoyed and attended as well as we do!

AstartesXXVI

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Re: How to get the 40K Events you want
« Reply #17 on: September 16, 2014, 06:32:55 PM »
There are a couple of problems with the request that the description be more concise, I think.

First, the game itself is so open-ended (Not a bad thing!) that you NEED to establish ground rules before every game you play anyway.  Writing them all up-front is actually a good thing, since it saves you from having to come to independent agreements at the beginning of every round.  It's an effort to save time, not an arbitrary set of restrictions.
I'm not necessarily saying they should not have these things, just that it makes much more sense to codify them and link to them. It will make an announcement seem much less likely to be perceived poorly.

There are also ways to make restrictions more palatable for the uninitiated (as a modern 40k player is going to have NO IDEA why he can't use an unbound army or a set of Imperial Knights for his force, and the rules telling them they can't just make them assume they don't belong anyway). If it were me I would combine all those restrictions into some kind of special Battleground army that gives the options as a Force Org of some sort. It says all the same things in one graphic that half the tournament announcement says, and makes what is currently a stern restriction instead seem like an intentionally thematic element.

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Look at your own description of events: "a few rounds of 40k with scores for winning, playing nice, and looking nice."
The goal of an event should be to attain this effect with as few changes as possible to ensure a level playing field.

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Scores.  How will they be scored?  It can't be simply subjective, since that's not much fun and not very fair (think of Gymnastics or Dancing or Figure Skating--there's always a huge argument about the quality of the judging).  For objective scoring, you need some kind of standardization.

We have one. Victory points!

I've never quite understood what exactly is wrong with "whoever has scored the most victory points at the end of all three of their games is the winner"...Tournaments have this burning need to insert their own third-party points systems to tinker with this, or to ensure that victories are not equal or that near victories are as worthless as crushing defeats (the much-vaunted Battle Points).

I attribute this 100% to a simple lack of changing with the times. Tournaments had their points for win/loss/draw structure because originally there WAS no universal point in the game. Now we do, and people simply do not want to adapt because there is a social stigma. There is really no need to standardize anything beyond making any other things you want to factor for a victor (like painting or sportsmanship be converted to more Victory Points).

I understand why it isn't used 1:1 of course (this introduces the other issue, where you have players who "win" all three of their games while someone who lost one or two but got a big crop of points comes out ahead...but you can still do the win/loss/draw format without an issue while still using Victory Points to differentiate somehow).

Trying to turn this format into something more modern is something of a morbid hobby of mine, but I've quickly learned is all that seems to do is make people go "Dude you tournament wrong" (which is the reason I have opted to never, ever, EVER run another such event at the Bunker). 

Scoring, and transparency about it. I have mixed feelings about it. I'd rather the scoring be presented to people who sign up, instead of being presented beforehand -- people should want to play first (I know this isn't feasible, of course, but a guy can dream). People show up to WIN when you hand them the rubric and tell them how to win. Without this, people can only show up prepared to play a few games.

People min/max, not just the lists they use but the event itself -- take the recent 750 tourney announcement, or any BG event announcement. It is almost universally followed by seasoned pros finding one or two clever gross builds that supercede the announced restrictions or take advantage of what few things are allowed. Adding more restrictions just adds more of those wrinkles to play with.

Then again, I'd like to see some kind of event that encourages people to actually have fun, and that kind of thing is too subjective to codify (though I'll continue my experiments at Evil Dice but I realize they are just that -- my own morbid tinkering that will never be supported anywhere outside my own four walls. Fun is absolutely 100% the last thing on any serious tournament organizer's mind. All they are generally doing is trying to avoid getting bitched at -- which is futile, so I don't know why they bother).

I want to stress I'm not saying that all this actually change. The Battle Points, the up-front restrictions, etc... that stuff obviously isn't going to change any time soon. Just that it could change, in ways more universally in tune with the current generation of new players/new gameplay.

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Second, if you don't post that stuff up-front, people WILL miss the info and show up with something unsuitable. Heck, I'm sure a number of folks already don't read it carefully!  My day job is as a technical writer and trainer, so trust me, you can never reach everyone even with the simplest words and obvious presentation.
This is true, of course. But the goal isn't to reach more people, as much as not to drive people who already see it away. Plenty of sets of eyes see the announcement. It should look more like an event announcement, and not a proclamation of how to play. And of course, playing devil's advocate, there is always the fact that if you don't restrict anything, no one can accidentally violate the restriction. :)

There is a lot to be said for presentation. An announcement for a 40k event that has maybe 20% going "Hey we're having an event here's how to sign up and what you need" and 80% a wall of text telling everyone a number of things that are changed sends and reinforces a message -- "You must play like this or you should just not come."

BG is in q unique position to craft the format of tomorrow instead of just emulate the formats of yesterday, and I guess that kind of skews my thought process quite a bit. I don't know, man. Just spitballing here! It is good to see some discussion that is not disruptive. Keep up the good work, all.

TL;dr:
1. Too much emphasis on the changes seems like it isn't going to attract many new players;
2. Maybe there are ways to make the events seem more inviting without changing the core idea
3. This post is roughly comparable to the tournament announcements...so if this post is too big for you to read... ;)
"Really, the entire game is 'Opponent's Permission' if you think about it..."

GrimSnik

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Re: How to get the 40K Events you want
« Reply #18 on: September 17, 2014, 12:58:37 AM »
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Fun is absolutely 100% the last thing on any serious tournament organizer's mind. All they are generally doing is trying to avoid getting bitched at -- which is futile, so I don't know why they bother).

I'm a gonna have to say my experience  in this area does not match your supposition Mr Astartes XXVI.   :)  :)  ;)

fun is a subjective thing, but as an event organizer, fun is the PRIMARY goal of my intentions.  and just to establish a qualification, when all is said and done for this Saturday's Doubles event for which I'm the Event Organizer, I will have spent over 30 hours of prep work on missions, handouts, and other materials just to be ready to run the event. this event is by no means a GT, but I am serious about doing my best to provide a good time for the attendees.

and I know from years of experience with Battleground events and the staff, that hosting a good time for participants is THE goal. and not just from a commercial standpoint, but from a passion for the events and a good rapport with the gaming community whether it be card, board, or miniature games. just take a look at the quality terrain and you can see how serious they take the exercise.   ;)

lastly, can someone explain to me what this means:   "TL;dr:"?  I saw it at the bottom of the last 2 posts, but can't for the life of me figure out what it means.   :o  ;D   :D  :)  ;)

 

AstartesXXVI

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Re: How to get the 40K Events you want
« Reply #19 on: September 17, 2014, 09:55:36 AM »
Well, to qualify it a bit further, I'm referring exclusively to the "Tournament like the Pros" mindset. This is very much not what the group at Pandemonium does -- you guys have your own style, it is unique and fun, and I highly doubt that when designing it you are focusing on what the guys who run NOVA or the Bay Area Open have to say about the edition. In fact, your approach of basically testing the waters for just how far the envelope will actually be pushed is a great approach; you shouldn't make people at one event be punished for something some other guy did at the last one. In your announcement thread someone brought up concerns about the scoring mechanisms, worried that too much player involvement would skew them. That makes sense but I mean...to hear people tell it, you would think there are zero-comping assholes everywhere, when really there aren't.

I dunno. People want this to be scored like a sport. But I don't know of any sport where you can tell the referee that you don't like the rules and make them change them next game.

Obviously hosting a good time for everyone is the goal of any event organizer. But some people will sacrifice the entertainment of the game on the altar of competition/sales/"the national meta" or what have you fairly readily, and I will always caution against that because it's a slippery slope.

The last Battleground event I played in was excellent, in large part because it was simple and didn't do too much to the game. I generally don't support altering it to a significant point personally -- it just further reinforces the stranglehold the Adepticon/Nova/BAO/BOLS crowd has on the game and the perception of the game. So I say save the full-blown tourney restrictions for primer events, and instead take a look around the groups and see how your players are playing week to week to see what kind of events would be popular.

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this event is by no means a GT
If you ran a GT it would be the first time I would actually go to a GT! Now that you mention it I do have a rather tall order for CaptainCon...

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lastly, can someone explain to me what this means:   "TL;dr:"?  I saw it at the bottom of the last 2 posts, but can't for the life of me figure out what it means.   :o  ;D   :D  :)  ;)
It means "Too Long, Didn't Read" and it makes me sad every time I see it because it is basically a person saying "here's a summary in case you can't be bothered to read my longer-than-a-paragraph post. :( (though I suppose when you are as long-winded as I am it's a good time-saver, heh).
"Really, the entire game is 'Opponent's Permission' if you think about it..."

Nathan B

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Re: How to get the 40K Events you want
« Reply #20 on: September 18, 2014, 07:07:19 AM »
I'll be going to this tournament to either:
1) Win, or
2) Have my rear end handed to me in interesting, inspiring, and educational ways, or
3) Fight some good, hard, close matches of 40K.

Either would be fun. I'm definitely going to the tournament to have fun.

I also look forward to seeing a broader variety of armies than I usually see on any given Thursday, and to facing forces for which I was not able to plan, and/or which were not tailored to fight me. That's a very different experience than being able to say "well, tonight I'm facing marines... I better bring grav but leave the poison at home."

What we don't want is anyone to show up at a game to find that his/her weapons are totally useless. That's no fun at all. 2 Imperial Knights vs. 18 units of grots? The number (or type, using maelstrom missions) of objectives becomes the only important roll of the game. The restrictions do a good job of that, but I agree that 1) The wording could be significantly streamlined, and 2) Some of the restrictions are unnecessary. (What can my opponent do with 3 CADs that renders my weapons useless? Especially at 750 points? Oh, and does the Orky force org chart count as a CAD?)

I will say that harsh sounding language about conversions, excessive text, and restrictions that I felt unnecessary and/or unfluffy have helped drive me away from 1-2 tournaments I considered being part of in the past.

Ooh ooh! We should have a fluff-score at a tournament! Do armies already get scored for fluffiness? I'm not the hobby's biggest fluff peddler (Salamanders in drop pods? Humbug!), but think that those who are should get bonus points for bringing in that aspect of the hobby.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2014, 07:15:58 AM by Nathan B »