Getting 7th Edition Tournament-Ready

[Goblin]

so, their psychic phase got worse.

it's not significantly worse, you're likely to get catalyst off just as frequently as you used to by dumping dice into it, and it's the only spell that really matters.

Other armies psychic phase got better,

arguable, the casting %s are down across the board and the perils %s are up (which are affected by shadows). some of the powers are better but largely you're seeing the same nasty stuff as before with lower cast %s. invis being the exception.

Shadows now does less.

it was only important before because it made psychic tests non-auto-cast, they're now more like that by default. i'd like an faq to make it do more, but i'm not holding my breath

Nids already weren't doing well.

they were competitive with skyblight, and now that's a standard part of the game.

Nids still can't ally with any except in 'come the apoc'

pure upside. i can now ally where i couldn't (including self-ally), don't see an issue here.

Taking a Jink save now means that you can only shoot snapshots.

that was already like that, and the jink went from 5+ to 4+, again pure upside.

Vector strikes now do less to ground targets.

gotta give you this one, weaker vector hurts.

One of their powers got nerfed, as did one of their unique items.

if you're referring to warp blast, i agree it's worse, but it doesn't really matter that much, not a lynchpin for the army and it technically did get a minor buff as well since my flyrants can now cast it and still shoot all their guns. all their unique items were already terrible so that's moot anyway.

realistically the army got a few huge buffs: the grounding changes are massive, formations being in is massive, lords of war being in (assuming they stick in competitive) is massive especially since the nids gargantuans never had d to begin with so the d nerf is pure upside. combining the grounding buff with a t8 flying gargantuan makes for a really hard model to kill (granted, 735 is pricey).

all that combined with the fact that the deathstars are generally harder to build or less reliable (invis aside) and the fact that the fmc changes probably hurt daemon flying circus more than nids since they were more reliant on assault than nids, the likely meta shift will probably be favorable for nids (again, same caveat as above about the number of 7th ed games i've played )

while it's too early to say nids are top tier (realistically, they probably aren't), i think it's also too early to say they're trashcan.

[AstartesXXVI]

Yeah I don't think the Tyranids are going to have a problem, and if they are it isn't apparent yet.

Broodlords and other models are now more desirable for adding dice to the psychic pool, so I don't think it got worse (especially as, since all Nids use one table, the whole army all have the Primaris power for free now due to Psychic Focus). Plus ol' Broody will get to rip the character apart in a challenge and then his extra hits will spill over to the unit. As a result they'll have pretty decent psychic defense, at least (if you build for it).

Taking a Jink save is a boon to an FMC armed for nothing but melee combat (where things will have improved, due to aforementioned challenge changes). Just cross the board as a jump MC and jink all the time. When you add in a nearby Venomthrope it's a really good save.

Shadows makes Perils hurt more and there will definitely be more Perils than before.

It's really not a certainty but we'll see, long-term.

[keithb]

Please explain how catalyst got better when it is likely the only power your opponent will care about stopping and now actually has a chance to stopping it instead of just not being able to stop it?


Many commenters and TOs are already discussing banning 'come the apoc' allies. so this may not help.

All the talk about broodlords being useful needs to take into account how point inefficent genestealers are right now.

I was not talking about any nerf to warp blast.  Look at FAQ for what I am talking about.

Tyranids have only one CC FMC, and it is a lynchpin model for the army.

Also, can we not pretend that only being able to move 12 instead of 24 the turn before you assault is nbd?

[AstartesXXVI]

Can we also not pretend that just because some things in the army took a hit, it is doomed to obscurity?

You can list probably 10 bad things about every book in this game, it does not mean they are irreparably ruined and that you need to go grab a pitchfork and torch. Things Changed =/= Book Ruined. Why not focus on positive changes or potential ways to adapt, instead of dismissing them out of hand?

For example...if Nids only have one viable melee FMC...then...I guess the changes to FMCs weren't so bad for them, no (besides...don't tell me there are melee flyrants running around...I haven't seen one without a set of shooting weapons in a minute). Either way, man, there is no need to declare the whole army is in the trash because one/some unit(s) changed (and I say CHANGED, not got nerfed, because we don't know long-term how this change fits into the rest of the edition yet).

[Chase]

Many commenters and TOs are already discussing banning 'come the apoc' allies. so this may not help.

I was going over this today with Doubles in mind.  I'm not sure "Come the Apoc" allies need to be banned, but without just ignoring the rules it seems to me like they'd essentially exclude themselves as super viable options.  Then again, you never know.

[Goblin]

Please explain how catalyst got better when it is likely the only power your opponent will care about stopping and now actually has a chance to stopping it instead of just not being able to stop it?

pretty sure i never said it got better, it didn't. it's obviously worse, just like most psychic powers, because it's harder to get off. there are a lot of armies who needed their psychic powers to go off reliably a lot more than nids need theirs.

All the talk about broodlords being useful needs to take into account how point inefficent genestealers are right now.

agree, broodlords weren't worth taking before and still aren't. they're probably less worth taking now that you need more warp charges than they generate to reliably cast the horror.

I was not talking about any nerf to warp blast.  Look at FAQ for what I am talking about.

what'd i miss? everything looks the same aside from a marginal buff to dominion.

Tyranids have only one CC FMC, and it is a lynchpin model for the army.

Also, can we not pretend that only being able to move 12 instead of 24 the turn before you assault is nbd?

the flying hive tyrant is still a lynchpin, and isn't all that much worse than before. you bought them for the on average 11 s6 hits in shooting before, and they're just as good at doing that. you bought the wings before to get them into 18" range and make them harder to kill. they still do the first part and they do the second part better than they did before. not being able to assault the turn you switch modes sucks for sure, i won't disagree with that, but i also typically only brought them down to assault in situations where i was either already winning handily, or in situations where i badly needed something to go my way because i was getting wrecked. going into assault was a major risk reward situation before and not doing it as often doesn't bother me that much.

the one situation that i really wanted to assault with them frequently was killing heavy vehicles, but that got killed more by the smash nerf than the fmc changes.

the meta game is going to shift with the rules changes, especially if the proposed changes for the psychic phase in competitive play go through (which i'm fine with, we were asked for specific examples of things that are nerfed by those changes, which is why i mentioned zoanthropes. i don't have a problem with the proposed changes as i generally only bring zoanthropes as synapse nodes anyway and typically only when i have leftover points that aren't enough to fit another monster). we'll have to wait and see where nids fall in the new meta, i think counting them out before we see some competitive results is premature.

[Benjamin]

Thread became about Tyranids, and not about tournaments. Meh.

My two cents here, that banning certain schools, such as the sexy new Daemonology, should not be an option at this point at all. It's new, people want to see it and more importantly people want to know if it will really work in a real-game situation. So far I know of one YouTube video making people sad, so sad they ignore the fact the 4000 point spawned army actually lost the game. For now, let it ride, so we can say we tried.

[fiesta0618]

How would it be if the dice limit towards any one psychic power were ML*2? That would give the higher mastery levels a geometric, rather than linear, advantage.

[Pat.H]

Thread became about Tyranids, and not about tournaments. Meh.

My two cents here, that banning certain schools, such as the sexy new Daemonology, should not be an option at this point at all. It's new, people want to see it and more Tester people want to know if it will really work in a real-game situation. So far I know of one YouTube video making people sad, so sad they ignore the fact the 4000 point spawned army actually lost the game. For now, let it ride, so we can say we tried.

Not mention banning Deamonolgy would ban the only psychic discipline  Orks currently  have access to. Also on the subject of the three Tervigon list is back thanks to the multiple detachments / unbound armies.

[robpro]

What about ML+WC cost as the max you can throw? A level 1 wizard could throw 4 dice at a WC3 spell, which males it possible but unlikely to cast, while there's still a decent chance to cast WC1-2 SPELLS.

[andalucien]

How would it be if the dice limit towards any one psychic power were ML*2? That would give the higher mastery levels a geometric, rather than linear, advantage.

6 dice might well be the ideal amount of dice to throw at a ml3 power anyway.   

Basically, I don't understand why people like this whole line of thought.    If you can't throw enough dice at a power to cast it more than half the time, the power becomes useless.  And throwing LOTS of dice at a single psychic power is redundant and will just make you perils, nobody would consider throwing 15 dice at a ml3 power to be "abusive"...    I don't think this is the right angle of attack here.  I like the idea of limiting the TOTAL warp pool to 12 or so better (but that might also have problems, definitely needs more testing & talking).

 

[Grimwulfe]

What makes people think casting a psychic power should be easy?  My thoughts on the new system is it should be extremely hard to use powers.  This is supported by fluff as well.  Not that I care about that angle but some might.

After some testing I did ML+2 looks to be a good sweet spot.  Nothing in this game says casting powers should be easy or should have a 50% chance etc.. 

[keithb]

Many commenters and TOs are already discussing banning 'come the apoc' allies. so this may not help.

I was going over this today with Doubles in mind.  I'm not sure "Come the Apoc" allies need to be banned, but without just ignoring the rules it seems to me like they'd essentially exclude themselves as super viable options.  Then again, you never know.

I wouldn't ban them.  you pay a penalty to do it, and there are plenty of great combos out there, most of which are battle brothers.

[AstartesXXVI]

What makes people think casting a psychic power should be easy?  [...] Nothing in this game says casting powers should be easy or should have a 50% chance etc..

Well, the default rules imply as much, just for the sake of playing Devil's Advocate. But if you have to go a route, ML+2 is probably not a bad one. I'd still rather see stuff deal directly with the powers in question, though -- some of these powers are as weak as a heavy flamer, for example. Making them harder to cast or less likely to succeed is going to basically turn a guy who rolls a crappy power, into a guy who has no powers, for all intents and purposes.

On another note, I don't think banning Come the Apoc allies makes sense either. Other than during deployment, they are the same as Desperate allies. So to me it doesn't make a lot of sense to restrict them, if you think about it.

[Grimwulfe]

Default rules actually dont. That is an opinion on how you see it.  Being able to throw many dice at a power will ensure it goes off yes but in doing so will kill the psyker.

In my opinion that isnt easy and isnt something that should be counted as easy either.

But this comes from a seasoned tourny player looking to mitigate thigs that can be taken advantage of and ruin the tourny experience for some.  Take from my opinion what you will.