Listing things that are broken...

[bradpowers]

Vehicles are weak as hell in comparison to Monstrous Creatures.  Vehicles have (assuming no invul) exactly one thing protecting them from getting damaged, which is their AV (equivalent to toughness).  They then have hull points, which are effectively wounds (most have 3), but IN ADDITION, they can be shaken, stunned, weapon destroyed, immobilized, or explode (instant death....). 

In comparison, MCs have high toughness, high wounds, armor saves, they get cover by sticking their toe in it, and they can move further while firing two weapons. 

If you compare straight across, toughness 8 (for example) is approximately equal to AV12 (requiring a S8 weapon a roll to pen/wound of 4).  For an MC, some fraction of those may go away from armor, or from cover (which is comparitively easy to get), AND MAYBE AN INVUL AND MAYBE FNP.  Jeeeeeeeeepers.  I compared a DC dread to a riptide once, and I cried.  A lot.  Anyway, I think some sort of fix to this would significantly balance the armies that have OP MCs (GK, Tau, Eldar) against the armies that have really nerfed vehicles (Marines..... Guard?  Do guard move? etc.)

[Sir_Prometheus]

Yup, yup. When we say "vehicles", though, we really mean walkers, right?  Vehicles have been nerfed too far, generally, but what it comes down to is that a dreadnought can not in any way fight even the weakest MC.  (like, a RIptide could kick a Dreads ass, and CC oriented it is not.  GK aside)

[the_trooper]

Yup, yup. When we say "vehicles", though, we really mean walkers, right?  Vehicles have been nerfed too far, generally, but what it comes down to is that a dreadnought can not in any way fight even the weakest MC.  (like, a RIptide could kick a Dreads ass, and CC oriented it is not.  GK aside)

Things like Riptides and the Dreadknight always seemed silly to be MCs. Why not consider making them also into walkers as that might adjust the power of them?


EDIT:  This would go for all things that are obviously vehicles, not just the two mentioned.

[Grand Master Steve]

I agree

[Sir_Prometheus]

OK, but that's a fluff-based argument, not a game balance argument.  By that, you'd have to make Wraith Lords and knights walkers, too, and wraith lords have been MCs a LOOOOOONNNNNNGGGGGG time. 

[the_trooper]

It is a game balance argument as they would be easier to kill which is a thing since Riptides are one of the reasons the game sucks.

Also, Wraithlords being MCs a long time is actually a fluff decision, iirc.

You could go in the opposing direction and make all walkers MCs.

[robpro]

I think Walkers being weak against MCs is a balancing thing. Walkers can't be hurt at all by things S4-5 if you consider them T8 equivalents (since you go against front armor), but MCs can. This makes walkers WAAAAAY better than MCs against regular dudes.

[Sir_Prometheus]

It is a game balance argument as they would be easier to kill which is a thing since Riptides are one of the reasons the game sucks.

Also, Wraithlords being MCs a long time is actually a fluff decision, iirc.

You could go in the opposing direction and make all walkers MCs.

That's what the narrative did, with Bjorn.  I'm not sure that actually made him better. 

I'm aware of all the fluff around Wraithlords.  I don't think making them MCs makes any more sense than anything else.  They are not organic. 

I don't think Riptides being MCs is particular over the top, defensively.  And they still suck at combat.  But what's weird is the smash rule makes them good against ICs, and walkers.  I don't think that's appropriate.  Maybe just remove the Smash rule from them? 

I think Walkers being weak against MCs is a balancing thing. Walkers can't be hurt at all by things S4-5 if you consider them T8 equivalents (since you go against front armor), but MCs can. This makes walkers WAAAAAY better than MCs against regular dudes.

Well, except Dreads don't have enough attacks.  They seriously lose against any marine squad that has at least a powerfist or a meltabomb.  They sometimes die to simple krak grenades.  That's not cool.

I really don't see anything wrong with literally doubling the attacks of regular dreads.  (furioso's would be broken that way)

[andalucien]

I still think needing a 6 to hit flyers is a bad game design decision.  It makes things so much more rock-scissors-papery. 

I would actually vote -1 to hit flyers.  But, I could live with -2.

[robpro]

Not every army has access to meltabombs or krak grenades, also walkers typically have better weapons loadouts than MCs and are able to shoot more guns (while costing less than most shooty MCs). Maybe giving dreds the option to buy a 5+ invul vs smash attacks or something would be enough? I don't think making them better at killing stuff is the answer, just making them a little tougher against MCs would do (if this is even really a problem).

[Tharcil]

Clearly the request to not talk about each topic while compiling was too complicated. Feel free to discuss whatever in any thread you'd like and don't bother to start a new one for a new topic.  Good luck trying to sort this out since we can't even keep a forum thread organized we have no hope of communally organizing new rules. I'll leave it to someone with more patience. This is the second time is thread has gone off course, though we're pretending the first time didn't happen do to it being moderated.

I'd ask this thread be closed off since it is off topic and I have no interest in trying to continue the project for which it was started.

[Sir_Prometheus]

Not every army has access to meltabombs or krak grenades, also walkers typically have better weapons loadouts than MCs and are able to shoot more guns (while costing less than most shooty MCs). Maybe giving dreds the option to buy a 5+ invul vs smash attacks or something would be enough? I don't think making them better at killing stuff is the answer, just making them a little tougher against MCs would do (if this is even really a problem).

If you can't hurt it, you're allowed to just run!  They still don't have enough attacks to hurt the unit much. It just becomes a tarpit situation.

Yes, necrons will get run down. Should have gaussed it.

[robpro]

Not every army has access to meltabombs or krak grenades, also walkers typically have better weapons loadouts than MCs and are able to shoot more guns (while costing less than most shooty MCs). Maybe giving dreds the option to buy a 5+ invul vs smash attacks or something would be enough? I don't think making them better at killing stuff is the answer, just making them a little tougher against MCs would do (if this is even really a problem).

If you can't hurt it, you're allowed to just run!  They still don't have enough attacks to hurt the unit much. It just becomes a tarpit situation.

Yes, necrons will get run down. Should have gaussed it.

It's not about Necrons, it's about if the answer is to make this thing even better at killing stuff it's already good at killing vs making it more survivable vs the things that might be disproportionately better at killing walkers.

@Tharcil - I thought the point was for us to agree on a list, not to literally list every single thing somebody lost a game to. The fact that we're in agreement about some things and not others kind of highlights that. It will be a lot easier to look at things in the core mechanics that we all think are over the top before trying to look at units 1-2 people didn't like (ie storm ravens and walkers).

[Sir_Prometheus]

Ok. I just don't think dreads need to tougher, the need to be more Killy.  I imagine most SM players agree

[Battleground]

I love the idea of a stab at community organized rules system. I have no problem creating an "approval only" forum where people who are... on the same page ... can hash things out in a more orderly fashion. If you like, I can make it visible to everyone, but only certain people can comment within the thread. That way, people can talk about their opinions "outside" of the main folder without interruption to the general flow of orderly ideas.

I'm really curious what sort of things people can come up with, so let me or Chase know if you want us to set something like this up for you.