Working on some possible comp/rules fixes

[Grimwulfe]

The trooper and such have hit the nail on the head.  Astrates while you see the game as great me and my competitive brethren who travel the country to go to GT's and such see the game getting worse.  This has nothing to due with "change" in the context you are putting it.  It has everything to do with the current rule-set and the fact that 90% of armies cant be played in a competitive environment because of the imbalances and so on.

Well 5th ed wasn't exactly competitive, I would say less so then 6th. Almost all the Imperial factions were light years better then any of the xeno armies, and vehicles were almost impossible to kill( remember IG mech spam?)  There is a whole big world out there beyond the BG community, and I still think 6th is a lot better then 5th.

Then I would say you haven't played competitive 40K yet on the large scale.  Please remember that a large portion of us commenting in this thread have gone to MANY large 40K events travel to many different stores.  5th was good until GK and Necrons.  Before that maybe 2-3 codexs weren't able to compete.  Instead of now where is it only 2-3 codexs which can compete.

[MM3791]

Before that maybe 2-3 codexs weren't able to compete.  Instead of now where is it only 2-3 codexs which can compete.

Really? Which 10 armies can't compete now?

[Chase]

I can say for sure that attendance has fallen off considerably.  It's impossible to say exactly why everyone has stopped coming out, but here's 10 possible reasons that I believe have had an impact:

1) Burn out.  Tournaments at BG are not new.  Potential players know that there will probably be one (or more) events each month.  They've played in a bunch and can play again whenever they'd like.

2) Time.  Tournaments are an ALL DAY affair.  10am - 7 or 8 or 9pm before you're home.  It's grueling.

3) People.  For every 10, 20, or 30 people that are enjoyable to play with and against, there's a "bad seed" that you might not like to play against.  Hard to invest an entire day off on an event which may pair you up with someone you've decided you don't like playing.

4) 6th Edition / GW in general.  Some people don't like / didn't adapt to the new edition.  Some people really dislike GW in terms of... everything.

5) The direction in which the game seems to be going.  Not everyone thinks GW is making the right choices and they'd rather not invest their time and or money into paying / playing in an event in which options they don't like are allowed.

6)  The rate at which content is coming out.  Some players like to feel they have a solid shot at winning an event.  Some of those people don't feel as though they aren't as well equipped as they might like to be because they don't have time to keep up with all the content GW is putting out.  Their response is to stay at home on tournament day.

7) The overall balance of the game.  Some people do not feel like the game is balanced at all and they'd rather not get paired up and "auto-lose" or invest in the flavor of the month army / option.

8. The perceived cost to keep current.  Similar to 6 and 7, some people just aren't willing to pay to keep updated / "competitive." 

9) The inconsistency in "kinds of" events in the area.  For better or worse, not all events in the area or at the two BGs are run under one consistent or predictable rule set.  It's hard for some players to feel good about coming to an "odd" event because they do not know what to expect / they don't feel it furthers them as a player.

10) They're sick of all the negativity on the BG forums and would rather shelve 40k for a while and do other things / play other games.

[Mike_k]

Before that maybe 2-3 codexs weren't able to compete.  Instead of now where is it only 2-3 codexs which can compete.

Really? Which 10 armies can't compete now?

Basically Eldar, Tau, Daemons, Space Marines win at a much higher and more consistent pace than all other armies.  This is based purely on the numbers compiled thus far by ToF but the rough break is you essentially have 25% of the armies winning 75% of the time.

Personal experience has been very similar as well.

[Mike D]

Mike k and Keith b.  thank you for the direct personal attacks.  I never once attacked either of you directly.  I never once insulted you or your opinions.  I disagree with what you are proposing and feel that in an open forum I should be able to state my opinion.  I never mentioned dark star at all.  Yes I posted from a "me" prospective because it was my opinion.  I don't speak for others or want to.  Look at the top tables(3-5).  It is usually the same 6-10 players with an occasional dark horse in the mix.  Are any of them proposing these rule changes? Do any of them support the rules changes? If most of them do then my comment about losers wanting to change things is off base and I will apologize.  If not then I will stand by my statement.  Part of a discussion about changing rules should be the possibility of leaving them be.  BG events are great I love coming to them.  I have been absent to let things settle and see what I want to do for an army.  One last thing, this is a game, a game we all have a lot invested in,  I am sorry my opinions have angered some of you.

[Mike_k]

I would love to know how I attacked you in anyway?  By suggesting you calm down and stop insulting people?  Hoping maybe you will stay on and respect the topic?  Seriously take a chill pill and stop insulting me and the people I am working with.  Regardless if you like it or not we are trying to do something we feel benefits the community.

Keep your mud slinging to yourself and post meaningful critiques.  If you cannot refrain from that then please start your own topic and rant away.

[Mike D]

Mike K your post at 11:17am was a solid stab at my opinion and attempted to make me sound like an unreasonable and irrational person.  I am passionate about this game and have strong views.  That being said I can admit my posts threw some broad brush stokes at certain members of the gaming community without individually pointing a finger.  I am more than willing to engage you in a reasonable and rational debate about every one of your proposed rule changes.  So pick one.  Make your points and I will counter.  This will be my last post tonight however as work starts early

[Mike_k]

Mike K your post at 11:17am was a solid stab at my opinion and attempted to make me sound like an unreasonable and irrational person.  I am passionate about this game and have strong views.  That being said I can admit my posts threw some broad brush stokes at certain members of the gaming community without individually pointing a finger.  I am more than willing to engage you in a reasonable and rational debate about every one of your proposed rule changes.  So pick one.  Make your points and I will counter.  This will be my last post tonight however as work starts early

Mike your statement about "blood boils" did all of that not me or my response.  Sorry if you felt it did but it was not the intent.  I am not going to state points for you to counter either as that is not what this thread is for and the reasoning has been explained repeatedly.  This thread is simply a request to get additional feedback about some rules tweaks and how they impacted the already "weak" armies.

[keithb]

Mike k and Keith b.  thank you for the direct personal attacks. 

No problem, I stated exactly why what you said bothered me and countered your direct argument, I also stated that people who do what you did are "the worst".  Please explain how that is a personal attack.

I never once attacked either of you directly.  I never once insulted you or your opinions. 

FALSE.  You called Mike and other people who are pro comp "whiners" who seek to change the game because they can't win otherwise.  You insulted us, and cast incorrect assumptions on why we are doing what we are doing.  Maybe you don't realize you did this, but as you said, your blood was "boiling", so maybe you just shouldn't post when you are in that state?

I disagree with what you are proposing and feel that in an open forum I should be able to state my opinion.  I never mentioned dark star at all.  Yes I posted from a "me" prospective because it was my opinion.  I don't speak for others or want to.

You are totally free to disagree with what mike or anyone on this forum.  However, you are not free to do so in any manner you choose.  I've already pointed out above why your earlier post was not cool.

  Look at the top tables(3-5).  It is usually the same 6-10 players with an occasional dark horse in the mix.  Are any of them proposing these rule changes? Do any of them support the rules changes? If most of them do then my comment about losers wanting to change things is off base and I will apologize.  If not then I will stand by my statement.

Lol, you brought this up, so sure.  I was always on the top tables when I played.  I stopped because the game was getting very shitty.  I 100% support changes.  Many other do too.  Certainly not everyone, but a sizeable portion do.

Also, you should apologize, because it is generally poor form to assume you know why people say/think the things they do. 

  Part of a discussion about changing rules should be the possibility of leaving them be.  BG events are great I love coming to them.  I have been absent to let things settle and see what I want to do for an army.  One last thing, this is a game, a game we all have a lot invested in,  I am sorry my opinions have angered some of you.

You are free to feel whatever you want.  Your Opinion does not upset me, it doesn't even effect me.  What pissed me off was how you stated your opinion.

[Battleground]

Let's turn it down a little.

[Bill]

Just to go on record, I like these changes and think they would have a good effect on the game and more importantly make it more enjoyable for all.