Working on some possible comp/rules fixes

[Mike_k]

Hello BG 40k'ers.

Working on some potential comp/rules fixes to tune 40k and spread the balance out some.  Have some initial ideas targeted at the really difficult to handle things like 2+ rerollable saves and super mega deathstars.

We are aware that the 1 IC change will hurt IG/sisters and would probably make an exemptions list for armies/units/IC's excluded from this list.

Tell us what this list of changes breaks or hinders into non play-ability or even just makes worse than it already is.

Also some armies have plenty of ways to get rerolls to shooting/hits and some armies dont.  Some units with lots of twin linking like missilesides instantly invalidate units like ork boys.  Looking to tune twin linking, prescience etc to dial that back some.

Reroll saves:
2+ = 2+ 5+ on the 2nd roll
3+ = 3+ 4+ on the 2nd roll

Unit/army changes:
1 IC per unit (will adjust for IG, sisters and anything else that this breaks)
Battle Brothers cant join allied units
IC's can never carry the relic ever

Any reroll to hit is only reroll of 1's whether Twin linked, prescienced, etc

[robpro]

Could you provide some reasoning behind each decisions? What you thought was the problem (list examples), other possible solutions, and why this was the best one? A lot of these don't really make sense to me.

[Sir_Prometheus]

So you can nitpick every little thing, Rob?

I've come about to thinking there should be no re-rolls of invo saves ever.  A lot of trouble comes about from psychic powers, and more specifically, fortune.  A lot of the rest comes from buff commanders.

On another board, we came up with this 4 point statement that I think solved 90% of the problems:

Fortune is a 4+ FNP, Grimoire only goes to 3++, No Joining Riptides, and you can't use both multispectrum and C&C at the same time

Seriously, that's 4 simple things, and it solves most problems.

[PhoenixFire]

Hello BG 40k'ers.

Working on some potential comp/rules fixes to tune 40k and spread the balance out some.  Have some initial ideas targeted at the really difficult to handle things like 2+ rerollable saves and super mega deathstars.

We are aware that the 1 IC change will hurt IG/sisters and would probably make an exemptions list for armies/units/IC's excluded from this list.

Tell us what this list of changes breaks or hinders into non play-ability or even just makes worse than it already is.

Also some armies have plenty of ways to get rerolls to shooting/hits and some armies dont.  Some units with lots of twin linking like missilesides instantly invalidate units like ork boys.  Looking to tune twin linking, prescience etc to dial that back some.

Reroll saves:
2+ = 2+ 5+ on the 2nd roll
3+ = 3+ 4+ on the 2nd roll

Unit/army changes:
1 IC per unit (will adjust for IG, sisters and anything else that this breaks)
Battle Brothers cant join allied units
IC's can never carry the relic ever

Any reroll to hit is only reroll of 1's whether Twin linked, prescienced, etc

these proposed comp changes seem very one sided to me...

minor nerf to re-rollable saves and a huge nerf to re-rollable to hit? even if you hit you still have to wound. I think it's too much of a nerf to armies with crappy BS that rely on TL such as Tau and IG

i can see logic in the Relic thing
1 IC per unit will probably negate some death stars
disallowing battle brothers to join units is a huge step though... i know 40k is pretty broken right now but thats a big change

[PhoenixFire]

So you can nitpick every little thing, Rob?

I've come about to thinking there should be no re-rolls of invo saves ever.  A lot of trouble comes about from psychic powers, and more specifically, fortune.  A lot of the rest comes from buff commanders.

On another board, we came up with this 4 point statement that I think solved 90% of the problems:

Fortune is a 4+ FNP, Grimoire only goes to 3++, No Joining Riptides, and you can't use both multispectrum and C&C at the same time

Seriously, that's 4 simple things, and it solves most problems.

Everyone agrees the Grimoire gimmick is OP, and nobody likes joined riptides but there are a lot more problems with this game, and two nerfs to Tau and one nerf to Eldar and Daemons are not going to fix 90% of the problems.

as much as i hate to say it because i LOVE allies the only thing that might fix 90% of the problems are to get rid of allies

[robpro]

So you can nitpick every little thing, Rob?

Seriously dude? Do we have to do this in every thread? With any proposed set of changes or komp, the reasons should be very straightforward for what those changes are designed to target. I don't know why you would only allow 1 ic to join a unit if you're saying battle brothers can no longer join each others units, so I'd like to know what that's about. Same with pretty much every other change he proposed. He also didn't mentioned stronghold assault or escalation, so I'm assuming they're allowed unless he says his comp excludes them. I think the 4 things you posted seem reasonable, and they're easy to understand because they target 4 specific things without making sweeping changes all over.

Isn't it weird how we need to discuss things to have a discussion?

[Goblin]

i personally think this is a step back from something like swedish komp or the fantasy etc. i think what you want to do is address the problem units instead of making blanket rules changes that have collateral damage on all sorts of things that were never an issue. for example: with these rules, if i have a twin-linked big shoota (fired by an ork, so bs2), i'm rerolling 75% less shots, whereas if i have a twin-linked heavy bolter (fired by a marine so bs4) i'm only rerolling 50% less shots. why are low bs units with twin linked getting the largest nerf despite not being an issue?

i think we need to figure out what the problem units/items/combos are and target those specifically instead of making blanket rules changes where the consequences are a lot more wide ranging and hard to see. bennett's proposed fixes are exactly the right kind, they target the units that are a problem and cause little to no collateral damage to units/armies that aren't an issue.

[Grand Master Steve]

you have an intriguing idea here. I wouldn't mind being a wall to bounce ideas off of.

[Sir_Prometheus]

So you can nitpick every little thing, Rob?

I've come about to thinking there should be no re-rolls of invo saves ever.  A lot of trouble comes about from psychic powers, and more specifically, fortune.  A lot of the rest comes from buff commanders.

On another board, we came up with this 4 point statement that I think solved 90% of the problems:

Fortune is a 4+ FNP, Grimoire only goes to 3++, No Joining Riptides, and you can't use both multispectrum and C&C at the same time

Seriously, that's 4 simple things, and it solves most problems.

Everyone agrees the Grimoire gimmick is OP, and nobody likes joined riptides but there are a lot more problems with this game, and two nerfs to Tau and one nerf to Eldar and Daemons are not going to fix 90% of the problems.

as much as i hate to say it because i LOVE allies the only thing that might fix 90% of the problems are to get rid of allies

Well, the real problem (currently) is death stars.  Getting rid of allies solves beast pack, and the lesser known centurion star,  but it only partially nerfs seer council, O'Vesa star is still possible (but much more expensive) and it does nothing at all about screamerstar, which sorta started this whole thing. 

Conversely, those 4 changes kill off ALL the deathstars.

Let me put it this way: What current problems do you see that those 4 changes don't solve?

[robpro]

Giving 4+ fnp to any unit eldar are battle brothers with could create new problems. I would look into that one a little more, but the other 3 seem pretty straightforward.

Like goblin said, targeted removal is better than blanket comp that doesn't really effect problematic things. Matt posted 4 targeted removal things that help deal with stuff that leaves a bad taste in a lot of peoples mouthes after games. It doesn't really do anything for the ignores cover issues or help out armies with lackluster (if any) battle brother options, but its a start.

[Sir_Prometheus]

Giving 4+ fnp to any unit eldar are battle brothers with could create new problems.

I can't think of any?  Certainly not more so than rerolling the save. 

It doesn't really do anything for the ignores cover issues

Saying C&C OR multispectrum does a lot to nerf Tau cover save ignoring problem.  Markerlights have the natural weakness in that they are usually easy to kill. 

[Chase]

So you can nitpick every little thing

Pot, meet kettle. 

Seriously dude? Do we have to do this in every thread?

Yes, it is crystal clear to everyone that's been to the boards once in the last 3 months that you DO have to do this in every thread.

[Dalymiddleboro]

My issue with this is it's not very fair to daemons. Our grimoire is very important in keeping fateweaver alive, and for our screamers. If we lose the ability of our grimoire, I vote wave serpents be limited to 3 per army, and riptides be limited to 2.

[robpro]

My issue with this is it's not very fair to daemons. Our grimoire is very important in keeping fateweaver alive, and for our screamers. If we lose the ability of our grimoire, I vote wave serpents be limited to 3 per army, and riptides be limited to 2.

...So you're in favor of 2+ rerollable invul saves? The proposal right now is to limit it so it can't improve a save better than 3+, which seems pretty reasonable.

[PhoenixFire]

So you can nitpick every little thing, Rob?

I've come about to thinking there should be no re-rolls of invo saves ever.  A lot of trouble comes about from psychic powers, and more specifically, fortune.  A lot of the rest comes from buff commanders.

On another board, we came up with this 4 point statement that I think solved 90% of the problems:

Fortune is a 4+ FNP, Grimoire only goes to 3++, No Joining Riptides, and you can't use both multispectrum and C&C at the same time

Seriously, that's 4 simple things, and it solves most problems.

Everyone agrees the Grimoire gimmick is OP, and nobody likes joined riptides but there are a lot more problems with this game, and two nerfs to Tau and one nerf to Eldar and Daemons are not going to fix 90% of the problems.

as much as i hate to say it because i LOVE allies the only thing that might fix 90% of the problems are to get rid of allies

Well, the real problem (currently) is death stars.  Getting rid of allies solves beast pack, and the lesser known centurion star,  but it only partially nerfs seer council, O'Vesa star is still possible (but much more expensive) and it does nothing at all about screamerstar, which sorta started this whole thing. 

Conversely, those 4 changes kill off ALL the deathstars.

Let me put it this way: What current problems do you see that those 4 changes don't solve?

i agree it solves some problems,

-3++ is still pretty durable (i've seen the mathhammer before on it i just cant reference it right now)
-no more Ov'esa star but the effects can still be done by putting more marker lights in your army
-not really knowledgeable enough on jetstar to speak intelligently on that

there's other issues like the aforementioned wave serpant spam (which blanket "comp" like daboyz attempted to combat but that is really a lazy mans version of comp). Flying circus same thing, but now with more things skyfiring you see less and less of that

then there's the whole can of worms about escalation and stronghold assault, is it legal? should it be legal?

then GW realized "hey, nobody's using escalation! ok release the kraken!... i mean codex knight titans aka escalation light")


i wish i had the answers on how to fix 40k but i dont, like i said before the simplest way to solve some of the issues is to disallow allies which sucks because allies are awesome, fun, and helps stores like BG by everyone buying more models because they want to add this and that and those detachments to their armies.

i think this Komp event BG is doing is a new interesting way of attempting to bring some order to 40k, but good players will find new comp legal good lists and honestly if you're a good enough player you can win with anything anyway