Author Topic: Working on some possible comp/rules fixes  (Read 19460 times)

Dalymiddleboro

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Re: Working on some possible comp/rules fixes
« Reply #15 on: February 26, 2014, 05:05:09 PM »
My issue with this is it's not very fair to daemons. Our grimoire is very important in keeping fateweaver alive, and for our screamers. If we lose the ability of our grimoire, I vote wave serpents be limited to 3 per army, and riptides be limited to 2.

...So you're in favor of 2+ rerollable invul saves? The proposal right now is to limit it so it can't improve a save better than 3+, which seems pretty reasonable.

As a daemon player in a world of triptide and serpent spam, I'm all for having my 2++ rerollable.

Goblin

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Re: Working on some possible comp/rules fixes
« Reply #16 on: February 26, 2014, 05:09:04 PM »
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there's other issues like the aforementioned wave serpant spam (which blanket "comp" like daboyz attempted to combat but that is really a lazy mans version of comp). Flying circus same thing, but now with more things skyfiring you see less and less of that

no reason we couldn't follow the same pattern on serpent spam or flying circus. we say, 'is this a problem?' then 'why is it a problem?' and then figure out a way to target that specific thing we think is bad for the game. the why is the most important thing. are serpents bad simply because you can have a lot of them? are they too fast? are they too hard to kill? are their weapons too good? if we can key in on exactly what makes these broken lists so broken, we can fix them in such a way that people can still play the models they want, without completely dominating the game while also not accidentally gimping armies that aren't an issue.

robpro

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Re: Working on some possible comp/rules fixes
« Reply #17 on: February 26, 2014, 05:18:19 PM »
My issue with this is it's not very fair to daemons. Our grimoire is very important in keeping fateweaver alive, and for our screamers. If we lose the ability of our grimoire, I vote wave serpents be limited to 3 per army, and riptides be limited to 2.

...So you're in favor of 2+ rerollable invul saves? The proposal right now is to limit it so it can't improve a save better than 3+, which seems pretty reasonable.

As a daemon player in a world of triptide and serpent spam, I'm all for having my 2++ rerollable.

As a necron player living in the same world, I'm all for being able to run my super heavies. However, a portion of the community are fairly interested in scaling 40k power levels down to a 5th ed equivalent (I think that's a good way to think of it), and everybody will have to give some things up to see if it can happen.

Sir_Prometheus

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Re: Working on some possible comp/rules fixes
« Reply #18 on: February 26, 2014, 06:00:01 PM »
My issue with this is it's not very fair to daemons. Our grimoire is very important in keeping fateweaver alive, and for our screamers. If we lose the ability of our grimoire, I vote wave serpents be limited to 3 per army, and riptides be limited to 2.

...So you're in favor of 2+ rerollable invul saves? The proposal right now is to limit it so it can't improve a save better than 3+, which seems pretty reasonable.

As a daemon player in a world of triptide and serpent spam, I'm all for having my 2++ rerollable.

OK, so  you seem to be calling a 2++ rerollable an inalienable right, and I'm going to call that ........strange, at the very least. 

i agree it solves some problems,

-3++ is still pretty durable (i've seen the mathhammer before on it i just cant reference it right now)
-no more Ov'esa star but the effects can still be done by putting more marker lights in your army
-not really knowledgeable enough on jetstar to speak intelligently on that


Not sure what the mathhammer is, 3++ leads to you taking 1/3 the wounds that come in.  Regardless, 3++ has been with us for a long time, and sure, it's durable.....I think that should be the upper limit on how durable anything can be.  (limited exceptions like shadowfields and NFW staffs are ok)

Yeah, markerlights are a thing.  You should probably kill the markerlights. 

With Jetseer, what it means is at most you're getting a 2+ armor/cover, or a 4++ invo, then a second 4+ FNP.  The good thing here is that armor, cover, and FNP all have ways to negate them.  Same thing with Beast packs. 

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there's other issues like the aforementioned wave serpant spam (which blanket "comp" like daboyz attempted to combat but that is really a lazy mans version of comp). Flying circus same thing, but now with more things skyfiring you see less and less of that

As you said, FMCs are not exactly unstoppable.  Wave serpents are definitely overpowered, but I don't think they're outright broken the way some of these deathstars are. 

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then there's the whole can of worms about escalation and stronghold assault, is it legal? should it be legal?

I think that's really a separate question, to which personally, my answer is "just no". 

then GW realized "hey, nobody's using escalation! ok release the kraken!... i mean codex knight titans aka escalation light")


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i wish i had the answers on how to fix 40k but i dont, like i said before the simplest way to solve some of the issues is to disallow allies which sucks because allies are awesome, fun, and helps stores like BG by everyone buying more models because they want to add this and that and those detachments to their armies.

Like I said, I see a lot of things banning allies does nothing to prevent. 

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i think this Komp event BG is doing is a new interesting way of attempting to bring some order to 40k, but good players will find new comp legal good lists and honestly if you're a good enough player you can win with anything anyway


I like the Komp system, but I feel it also is a separate matter.  It penalizes you for a lot of things people have no problems with, while still allowing through some of the crazy things. 

Benjamin

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Re: Working on some possible comp/rules fixes
« Reply #19 on: February 26, 2014, 06:58:47 PM »
Here's what I've come up with so far.

No 2+ cover or 2+ invulnerable saves. Just say no! Cap them at 3+.

ICs do not share their Special Rules with an attached squad. Solves the other half of Deathstar problems.

Helldrakes can't put templates wherever they like.

A unit disembarking from a transport that has not moved may declare an assault that same turn. Honestly, personal preference, just overturning a needless change in 6th while I'm here.

steelforge

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Re: Working on some possible comp/rules fixes
« Reply #20 on: February 26, 2014, 07:04:01 PM »
Instead of 2/4 or 3/3 any rerollable save is 2 worse.

Also, Battle Brothers may not join each other's units.
Problem solved.

Benjamin

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Re: Working on some possible comp/rules fixes
« Reply #21 on: February 26, 2014, 07:07:35 PM »
Almost forgot. No Strength D. No one like taking their models off the board.

steelforge

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Re: Working on some possible comp/rules fixes
« Reply #22 on: February 26, 2014, 07:15:15 PM »
Almost forgot. No Strength D. No one like taking their models off the board.
+1

robpro

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Re: Working on some possible comp/rules fixes
« Reply #23 on: February 26, 2014, 07:25:02 PM »
Almost forgot. No Strength D. No one like taking their models off the board.

You mean sarcasti40k?

Sir_Prometheus

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Re: Working on some possible comp/rules fixes
« Reply #24 on: February 26, 2014, 07:43:40 PM »
Here's what I've come up with so far.

No 2+ cover or 2+ invulnerable saves. Just say no! Cap them at 3+.

ICs do not share their Special Rules with an attached squad. Solves the other half of Deathstar problems.

Helldrakes can't put templates wherever they like.

A unit disembarking from a transport that has not moved may declare an assault that same turn. Honestly, personal preference, just overturning a needless change in 6th while I'm here.

Eh, cover saves aren't the same kind of problem, cuz there are ways around it. 

Goblin

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Re: Working on some possible comp/rules fixes
« Reply #25 on: February 26, 2014, 08:10:13 PM »
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No 2+ cover or 2+ invulnerable saves. Just say no! Cap them at 3+.

again, not a huge fan of the blanket rules. poor ghazghkull getting a nerf because demons are too good ;)

Benjamin

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Re: Working on some possible comp/rules fixes
« Reply #26 on: February 26, 2014, 08:12:41 PM »
Poor Ghazghkull is already nerfed having to take Orks. And not having Eternal Warrior.

Sir_Prometheus

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Re: Working on some possible comp/rules fixes
« Reply #27 on: February 26, 2014, 08:21:07 PM »
Pretty sure does have eternal warrior?

Thefallen

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Re: Working on some possible comp/rules fixes
« Reply #28 on: February 26, 2014, 08:24:47 PM »
Cover saves.:

I think they should be a ballistic skill modifier not additional save. Shooting a target in cover should make it harder to hit not a bonus save. Target with cover would infer a penalty on the shooting units Ballistic skill.

Stealth or light cover would be -1bs to the shooting unit.(6+cover)

Shrouded or medium cover (or stealth and light cover)= -2bs (5+cover)

Heavy cover= -3bs(4+cover)

The penalties are cumulative but never lower a bs below bs1.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2014, 08:40:31 PM by Thefallen »

Benjamin

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Re: Working on some possible comp/rules fixes
« Reply #29 on: February 26, 2014, 09:01:50 PM »
There was a mechanic in that Heretic's rules version that popped up between 5th and 6th, in which BS was resisted by another statistic meant to account for the target's natural Dexterity. Like, it'd be harder to hit Daemonettes, because they can dance and skitter around.

I've got to dig that thing up, because players were legitimately excited to play that version.