GW's March 1st stuff (Knight Titan)

[Loranus]

Wych cults haywire will eat it alive. MC can vectorstrike

Hmm... wych cults... those grenades still need a 6 to hit a walker and get a single attack right?  So, to do 6 hull points of damage you'd need on average 36 wyches.  I guess that is not much more expensive than the Knight actually    I guess that counts, even if I can't see it happening in an actual game (they are slower than the Knight).

Grenades are now treated as a Melee Weapon against Vehicles/Monstrous Creatures so you use your WS to determine what you need to roll to hit. You only get 1 Grenade per a model though. So at least a 4+ in most cases to hit with a Grenade on a Knight.

[robpro]

Any demon Prince. A Wraithknight. Not sure how space marines work, but meltabombs will definitely bring it down if you can get a few in a squad. Keep in mind it has to shoot you to be able to assault you and will strike at I1if it goes through terrain.

Even a bloodthirster will have to get reallly lucky to take one out.  A wraithknight will do maybe 1 or 2 hull points to it in assault.
Meltabombs will be hitting on 6's, will strike AFTER the knight, and even if they get a wrecked result it will only do a d3 hullpoints.  If you have 15 guys that somehow all have meltabombs, you MIGHT kill it.  But is there any army that can do that?

Grenades hit on WS like everything else in 6th ed. Why would meltabombs go at i1? A wraithknight has a pretty good shot at doing real damage to it, any demon prince with a demon weapon or warp speed has an excellent chance at killing it.

Why do you think models that cost 6 points or 15 or 200 should easily kill a 375 point model? 10 Sternguard in a drop pod with combi meltas in the rear kill this thing top of turn 1 all day, if that's all you care about.

[andalucien]

Grenades hit on WS like everything else in 6th ed. Why would meltabombs go at i1? A wraithknight has a pretty good shot at doing real damage to it, any demon prince with a demon weapon or warp speed has an excellent chance at killing it.

Why do you think models that cost 6 points or 15 or 200 should easily kill a 375 point model?

I don't think that.  My question was, what is there that costs around the same or cheaper than a Wraithknight that will want to charge it? 

My bad about the grenades.  I was still thinking of the 5th edition rules...   I guess I haven't done much charging of walkers lately!

[Sir_Prometheus]

Meltabombs hit at Initiative 1 because they have the unwieldy rule. 

No, TH/SS termies won't do anything to it.  Str D ignores invo saves, so it's no different than with normal termies, and I think Stomp does too.  They don't have nearly enough attacks at Str 8 to kill it, they might take a few hull points off is all. 

Wraith knights would do better than any other MC, but still would still be unlikely to kill it, on average.  The imperial knight kill the Wraith knight pretty easily, though.  I do not think there is any MC can really kill it before it promptly dies.

There's no real way to catch it with EMP grenade carrying FW, or really anything on the eldar side that has to come out of an enclosed transport.  SO while haywire's are a good answer I think the only unit that really can do it is wyches out of a raider. Everything else will die first. That goes for sister repentia, too.  It would be great if you could put them in a LR but you can't.  (also, the knight with the melta blast can kill LRs pretty easy)

No, every army does not have an answer to superheavies.

Rob, 2 hammerheads are cheaper than an imperial knight, but what does that matter?  I'm saying even the hammerheads are plenty hard to kill, the knight will be even tougher, and it doesn't get stunned or immobilized.  I said 18 or 36 because you can take 3 or 6 of them.

Super-heavies are a bad concept outside of apocalypse.  3-6 of them is absolutely ridiculous.  Just because GW wants to sell everybody Imperial Knights is not a good reason to wreck the game over it.  (more than it already is)

[Goblin]

a brood of carnifexes, at 360 (almost exactly the same cost) will get 3d3 s9 hammer or wrath hits and with four wounds, will take two d hits to kill on average, so they can reasonably expect to kill a knight on the charge.

[Grand Master Steve]

Meltabombs hit at Initiative 1 because they have the unwieldy rule. 

No, TH/SS termies won't do anything to it.  Str D ignores invo saves, so it's no different than with normal termies, and I think Stomp does too.  They don't have nearly enough attacks at Str 8 to kill it, they might take a few hull points off is all. 

Wraith knights would do better than any other MC, but still would still be unlikely to kill it, on average.  The imperial knight kill the Wraith knight pretty easily, though.  I do not think there is any MC can really kill it before it promptly dies.

There's no real way to catch it with EMP grenade carrying FW, or really anything on the eldar side that has to come out of an enclosed transport.  SO while haywire's are a good answer I think the only unit that really can do it is wyches out of a raider. Everything else will die first. That goes for sister repentia, too.  It would be great if you could put them in a LR but you can't.  (also, the knight with the melta blast can kill LRs pretty easy)

No, every army does not have an answer to superheavies.

Rob, 2 hammerheads are cheaper than an imperial knight, but what does that matter?  I'm saying even the hammerheads are plenty hard to kill, the knight will be even tougher, and it doesn't get stunned or immobilized.  I said 18 or 36 because you can take 3 or 6 of them.

Super-heavies are a bad concept outside of apocalypse.  3-6 of them is absolutely ridiculous.  Just because GW wants to sell everybody Imperial Knights is not a good reason to wreck the game over it.  (more than it already is)

No stomp does not ignore invuls, also a TT at Str 8 cant damage armor 13? did GW change how math works? Read the rules on a knight, it only has a limited number of attacks at Str D. Which cant kill every model that can potentially trash it.

[Sir_Prometheus]

Don't be derisive, and do some math yourself.  10 attacks (assuming 5 are still alive.....they will not) at str 8 are not going to kill an AV 13 super heavy.  Nor will 20. 

And yes, Stomp DOES ignore invuls, at least on a 6.  Otherwise 2-5 it's an Ap4 hit.  So the invo is meaningless either way. 

Man, if you're going to sneer at me, at least be correct. 

[Grand Master Steve]

my bad. I thought Stomp does not ignore. Besides a TH is not the only thing available plenty of stuff like Meltas as I previously stated. I shall continue sneering.

[Sir_Prometheus]

First of all, not everyone has access to drop pods full of meltas. 

Second, math assignment for you: figure out how many meltas it takes to drop a 6 hull point super-heavy. Don't forget the 4+ invo.   

Keep in mind we could see 3-6 of these things.  Is it reasonable to expect every marine player to stuff every drop pod full melta toting elites (sternguard, wolf guard, whatever).  What are the non-marines going to do? 

[Chase]

I'm 98% sure they're going to be legal in every event we host.

[Sir_Prometheus]

That would be very bad.

[robpro]

What makes knight titans ok, but lords of war not ok?

[the_trooper]

What are the non-marines going to do?

They are going to do what everyone who wasn't a Space Wolf player did when the Space Wolf codex came out.


They are going to do what everyone who wasn't a Grey Knight player did when the Grey Knight codex came out.

They are going to do what everyone who wasn't a Necron player did when the Necron codex came out.

They are going to do what everyone who wasn't a Tau player did when the Tau codex came out.

They are going to do what everyone who wasn't a new Tau and new Eldar player did when the Taudar codex came out.

Codex creep has been around for a long time and people adapted. Is it worse now? I'm not so sure, I just think some people have different thresholds for it.

EDIT:

For once this isn't a troll but an actual question. I've been reading opinions around the 'net and the statement was made with even more historic stand point citing things like siren princes and old 3.5 iron warriors and other such.

Historically, how much does this actually vary from GW shifting power amounts and how much is just personal taste for it?

[Sir_Prometheus]

This is all true, it just seems worse now.  In more competitive circles, the comment has been made that back in the day, good players could play whatever they wanted and still win -- it was just a little easier with whatever codex was in vogue.  That doesn't seem to be true anymore. 

These super heavies also a whole new category of stuff.....it's like they released flyers, but there was no skyfire.  Worse, strength D just invalidates entire selections of more elite models/units. 

[andalucien]

a brood of carnifexes, at 360 (almost exactly the same cost) will get 3d3 s9 hammer or wrath hits and with four wounds, will take two d hits to kill on average, so they can reasonably expect to kill a knight on the charge.

Nice!  That hammer of wrath action would totally help  as a knight charge deterrent.

Note:  Hammer of Wrath means the models have to all actually make it to B2B on the charge, so I can sometimes see it being difficult to get max HoWage.   But the Knight being on a huge base helps