Swedish Komp System

[AstartesXXVI]

The best way to iron out any potential changes is to throw some various live peoples' actual lists at it, and see where they naturally fall in the numbers at a given point level. See what kind of a range you are dealing with as was done earlier in this thread, and address holes. Then just pick a number and stick with it. If people find it too strict, the next event can go up by a point or two until you find the sweet spot.

I don't play much at BG's events anymore so I don't know what exactly your ultimate goal is but if it's more list variety I'd start low. Maybe one night, have a few guys play at Komp 3 @ 1850 and see how it fits, and adjust.

Unrelated, but I think an implementation like this would help on the reputation side as well.

[robpro]

Reputation is not an issue. Telling someone to build their army one way or the other won't make someone less of a douchebag. I've played people with fluffy armies that sucked who were less fun than people bringing the hardest list they could. There are some entities that enjoy the game just as much as everyone else that many other people don't like playing with, and changing the army rules won't change that.

[Grimwulfe]

Which in turn has nothing to do with this discussion or a comp system  

If we were to tweak this the 1 important thing is people to do it without being subjective or have an alternative motive. I think as a community we could do this and make this system better so we can at least TRY it as an experiment.

[Chase]

This discussion seems like it's going pretty well.  It does open up a lot more options in terms of arranging games, etc.

Talking long term here... If we end up adopting it for most BG tournaments something that I have to consider is the impact it may or may not have on people buying models.  Discouraging people from buying the stuff they might want, for any reason, is not something I'm interested in at all.

A guy being like, "I really want to buy that 2nd or 3rd Riptide but if I do it'll mess up my Komp.  I guess I'll have to get stealth suits, that I don't really like or want, because it doesn't cost me a point." is terrible, especially long term.  This also doesn't factor in that GW is making it harder and harder for BG to get (and make money on) less popular items.

Selling a dude 5+ Wave Serpents is something I like doing.  That happens because they're good and help people win events.  If what helps people win events is to use a unit of everything they already have, that's less than ideal.

Might it lead to people buying one unit of this and one unit of that?  Perhaps, but I don't really see it happening the same way people want 3+ Nightscythes, 2+ Riptides, 230480923402934709243 Broadsides, 5+ Waveserpents, 3+ units of Wraithguard, 3+ Warwalkers, 30+ Jetbikes, 30+ SM Bikes, 3+ FMCs, etc. etc.

[andalucien]

g one unit of this and one unit of that?  Perhaps, but I don't really see it happening the same way people want 3+ Nightscythes, 2+ Riptides, 230480923402934709243 Broadsides, 5+ Waveserpents, 3+ units of Wraithguard, 3+ Warwalkers, 30+ Jetbikes, 30+ SM Bikes, 3+ FMCs, etc. etc.

On the flipside, how many Necron Destroyers have you sold recently?  Tyranid pyrovores?  Theoretically, people would still need to buy an 1850 point army, right?  It's just that everyone wouldn't buy the SAME 1850 army.

[robpro]

Any comp system system will effect model sales. That's why I think BG should run 3k events with everything in, you'll probably sell more lords of war/fortifications and escalation/stronghold assault books that way. Or at least more regular stuff as people build up to 3k

[Mike_k]

Lots of great and valid points presented by all.  I do feel people are a bit more skeptical and looking at the "negative" side of a comp system as restrictive instead of looking at it as an aid to restoring game balance.

Since GW admittedly is not in the game design/balance business if we want to enjoy the hobby we need to take charge and make the game work best for us.  A comp system may not work for some, any, or all BG events because we have a pretty standup community and most people dont like being "that guy".

[Chase]

g one unit of this and one unit of that?  Perhaps, but I don't really see it happening the same way people want 3+ Nightscythes, 2+ Riptides, 230480923402934709243 Broadsides, 5+ Waveserpents, 3+ units of Wraithguard, 3+ Warwalkers, 30+ Jetbikes, 30+ SM Bikes, 3+ FMCs, etc. etc.

On the flipside, how many Necron Destroyers have you sold recently?  Tyranid pyrovores?  Theoretically, people would still need to buy an 1850 point army, right?  It's just that everyone wouldn't buy the SAME 1850 army.

This is basically exactly what I'm talking about.  Encouraging people to buy "trash" units that they don't really want or likely already own because it "fits the komp" is not what I'm interested in.  That's especially true when they'd much prefer to buy models that look cool and are "good" in multiples.

I feel like they'd just get by with what they have and not buy what they might otherwise want / like.

I worry that it's just the reality of the situation.


Would what you've mentioned happen?  Sure.  Will it happen as often as what I listed?  Almost definitely not.

[Chase]

Any comp system system will effect model sales. That's why I think BG should run 3k events with everything in, you'll probably sell more lords of war/fortifications and escalation/stronghold assault books that way. Or at least more regular stuff as people build up to 3k

Something like this is coming.  Probably March.  Probably Abington.

[andalucien]

g one unit of this and one unit of that?  Perhaps, but I don't really see it happening the same way people want 3+ Nightscythes, 2+ Riptides, 230480923402934709243 Broadsides, 5+ Waveserpents, 3+ units of Wraithguard, 3+ Warwalkers, 30+ Jetbikes, 30+ SM Bikes, 3+ FMCs, etc. etc.

On the flipside, how many Necron Destroyers have you sold recently?  Tyranid pyrovores?  Theoretically, people would still need to buy an 1850 point army, right?  It's just that everyone wouldn't buy the SAME 1850 army.

This is basically exactly what I'm talking about.  Encouraging people to buy "trash" units that they don't really want or likely already own because it "fits the komp" is not what I'm interested in.  That's especially true when they'd much prefer to buy models that look cool and are "good" in multiples.

I feel like they'd just get by with what they have and not buy what they might otherwise want / like.

I worry that it's just the reality of the situation.


Would what you've mentioned happen?  Sure.  Will it happen as often as what I listed?  Almost definitely not.

Well, my take on it is that, given a really good comp system, those units wouldn't BE trash!

Both of the example units I mentioned (pyrovores and destroyers) have AMAZING models. I actually own 15 destroyers (they were good in 5th ed).  I'm constantly rooting for a way to see them as something other than a waste of time.  And I was rooting for Pyrovores to be good, there was even a time when I thought I was going to Templecon and was considering buying some Pyrovores to paint them up before the new codex came out, because "surely GW won't let them be horrible again".  Thankfully caution won out.

[Mike_k]

Selling a dude 5+ Wave Serpents is something I like doing.  That happens because they're good and help people win events.  If what helps people win events is to use a unit of everything they already have, that's less than ideal.

Might it lead to people buying one unit of this and one unit of that?  Perhaps, but I don't really see it happening the same way people want 3+ Nightscythes, 2+ Riptides, 230480923402934709243 Broadsides, 5+ Waveserpents, 3+ units of Wraithguard, 3+ Warwalkers, 30+ Jetbikes, 30+ SM Bikes, 3+ FMCs, etc. etc.

As long as NEW content is coming out this will continue to be the norm.  New models, updated rules etc will always prompt people to acquire new models to play them.  I don't see comp hindering this as much as I see bad game balance turning people away entirely.

[Chase]

Mike, that sig is an A+

[keithb]

A guy being like, "I really want to buy that 2nd or 3rd Riptide but if I do it'll mess up my Komp.  I guess I'll have to get stealth suits, that I don't really like or want, because it doesn't cost me a point." is terrible, especially long term.  This also doesn't factor in that GW is making it harder and harder for BG to get (and make money on) less popular items.

Selling a dude 5+ Wave Serpents is something I like doing.  That happens because they're good and help people win events.  If what helps people win events is to use a unit of everything they already have, that's less than ideal.

Might it lead to people buying one unit of this and one unit of that?  Perhaps, but I don't really see it happening the same way people want 3+ Nightscythes, 2+ Riptides, 230480923402934709243 Broadsides, 5+ Waveserpents, 3+ units of Wraithguard, 3+ Warwalkers, 30+ Jetbikes, 30+ SM Bikes, 3+ FMCs, etc. etc.

What comp can do, is make the game more enjoyable for everyone, and then maybe you have 40 man 40k events again, rather that people getting fed up with the game and leaving it behind.

I will tell you now, I am much more interested in playing a comped version of 40k, rather than my close to 0 games of normal 40k in the last year.  I doubt I am the only one.

You know what people love chase?  Its buying the army that calls out to them in some way, for new people and hobbyists, this is usually 1)background and fluff and 2) the models themselves.

You know what people don't love chase? It's fielding an army from the book that interested them and finding out that they have almost no shot at winning games unless the 1) include the most effective allies or units they can (even if it isn't the story or models they like), or 2) Pick a new army and try again.

Having the game in a place where I can go play a game against anyone, and have some sort of balancing factor keep it a "winnable" or "competitive game", makes every army more usable and common.

Sure, you might not sell 5 waveserpents to someone, or lose out on selling the 3rd riptide to someone.  But you might have people actually building armies that are currently on the shit heap.

When was the last time blood angels have been doing much? 3 years ago?  Sure, they might be getting a new book soon, but that is 2.5 years of dead inventory and space where the army is just shit, and only the true fans of the army will buy it.

[keithb]

Selling a dude 5+ Wave Serpents is something I like doing.  That happens because they're good and help people win events.  If what helps people win events is to use a unit of everything they already have, that's less than ideal.

Might it lead to people buying one unit of this and one unit of that?  Perhaps, but I don't really see it happening the same way people want 3+ Nightscythes, 2+ Riptides, 230480923402934709243 Broadsides, 5+ Waveserpents, 3+ units of Wraithguard, 3+ Warwalkers, 30+ Jetbikes, 30+ SM Bikes, 3+ FMCs, etc. etc.

As long as NEW content is coming out this will continue to be the norm.  New models, updated rules etc will always prompt people to acquire new models to play them.  I don't see comp hindering this as much as I see bad game balance turning people away entirely.

This is GW's model, sell shit right when it is new, then who fucking cares after that.   Sounds like it is working great for them.

[MM3791]

When was the last time blood angels have been doing much? 3 years ago?  Sure, they might be getting a new book soon, but that is 2.5 years of dead inventory and space where the army is just shit, and only the true fans of the army will buy it.

I don't know if you know Brad, but he plays Blood Angels and is really good. He scored the most points and prize money in the 40k campaign last summer, and certainly stomped my ass more times then I'd like to admit.