Swedish Komp System

[Chase]

I think it's cool that an above average number of people are discussing this topic.

Is it too early to talk about any sort of changes you guys might like or which lines need to be edited?

[Benjamin]

Well, it's pretty clear to me that any comp system penalizing Orks in any way is a complete and total joke.

If we run comp events, can we also hand out participatory trophies? I just want to win something so bad,  I no longer care how I win it.

[Bill]

Well, it's pretty clear to me that any comp system penalizing Orks in any way is a complete and total joke.

If we run comp events, can we also hand out participatory trophies? I just want to win something so bad,  I no longer care how I win it.

But, you have won my heart!

[AstartesXXVI]

I think it's cool that an above average number of people are discussing this topic.

Is it too early to talk about any sort of changes you guys might like or which lines need to be edited?

I don't play in BG events much, but if it's any interest as a Space Wolf player, this is the first comp of any kind I've seen which I would actually still go to the event despite the comp. So from my book's perspective it seems pretty good.

I still don't think the Rune Priest is that good, but same difference, I guess. 

[Mad Dok Rob]

Well, it's pretty clear to me that any comp system penalizing Orks in any way is a complete and total joke.

but but but...we are soooooo overpowered in shoothammer 40k

[robpro]

I don't know that I would penalize mono-Orks, but taking meganobs in a trukk as allies can be super stupid. I might penalize that.

[Pat.H]

I don't know that I would penalize mono-Orks, but taking meganobs in a trukk as allies can be super stupid. I might penalize that.

Hey you leave my twenty-two meganobz alone.

[Cryptognomicon]

I was just thinking about it some more this morning and it could also be that this specific comp doesn't bother me so much because I generally don't play min/maxed overpowered net lists. 

I do not like the idea of penalizing anyone for taking something that is in their codex.  Because at some point in the process of choosing what should or shouldn't get penalized the TO or whoever is writing up the comp system is going to choose based on their personal preferences whatever they may be.

Again - not saying I wouldn't play one or two events a year with some sort of comp system but I would not want it to become a standard thing.

[keithb]

You need to rate the player, their sportsmanship, and their list in tandem to really get to the root of the problem.

Yes, you do. This is exactly what I have been saying.  At most GT events, sportsmanship can have a large effect on your placing, esp if you are not a good sport.   Most one day events don't take sports into account.

Either way, any comp score, and sports score should be separate, even if most douches play douche lists.

[keithb]

I'd be willing to give this a shot at some point at a BG event. But I would not want it to be an "every tournament" sort of thing.

Luckily Chase has already stated a zillion times that there is going to be all kinds of events at BG over the next year so hopefully he will consider adding this to the list of event ideas.

I don't think it would be wise to declare any system to be an "every tournament" thing without trying it once first.

Who knows, if the overwhelming majority like this system, and who knows, maybe we see a totally different top 5 armies in the placing, I don't see why we wouldn't consider using it at most events.

Turns out, if everyone hates it, we will probably use it once and toss it.

Amazing.

[keithb]

Well, it's pretty clear to me that any comp system penalizing Orks in any way is a complete and total joke.

If we run comp events, can we also hand out participatory trophies? I just want to win something so bad,  I no longer care how I win it.

I can make a thread for you, bill mcfadden and matt bennett and you guys can just be all knee-jerky and make proclamations to each other based on nothing.

[Grimwulfe]

That is sort of my point. Comp puts overemphasis on list contents, and list contents aren't the reason people don't go to tournaments. People avoid tournaments because they are perceived to be full of assholes.

I know people who avoid entire events just because ONE person is entered in them, comp or no. And if you go with a gimpy list because of comp, what is to stop you from making up for it by being a slow-playing, rules-misquoting, mis-measuring piece of shit? Nada. Low sportsmanship? So what, if it doesn't affect your actual chances at victory of some kind?

A comp system comes with the inherent reassurance there will be less dickhead lists, but the dickheads who play those lists still get to come (and you get to listen to them whine all day right off rip because they couldn't bring their 4th Riptide that day).

All I was saying is I'd rather face a thousand bullshit lists than one bullshit player, and that comp rubrics do nothing to deal with that. You can't make a rubric that says like, "Was he nice? +1 point..." You know? A game with an asshole doesn't suddenly become good because the comp dented their list.

You need to rate the player, their sportsmanship, and their list in tandem to really get to the root of the problem.

I think this is a separate issue and isn't on the same plane as a comp system.  But valid points non the less.  But honestly there is no way to curve the player all you can do is make it so that person cant go all douche mode with his list and attitude.

Chase,

I see no reason why we couldn't as a community work to make this better then it is.  We may want to keep that separate however so it doesn't get lost in the mix of this pleasant thread so far.

Community,

I think we need to stop thinking of this comp as a penal system but as more of a point system to buy from.  Assigning points to a specific army shouldn't been seen as a nerf or a penalization but more as a guide.

I also think that some armies maybe orcs and others and such should get bonus points which would bring it more in line with how fantasy does their comp.  And give those weaker armies a better chance to compete.

[keithb]

I do not like the idea of penalizing anyone for taking something that is in their codex.  Because at some point in the process of choosing what should or shouldn't get penalized the TO or whoever is writing up the comp system is going to choose based on their personal preferences whatever they may be.

Bullshit.  Why assume that the people who spend a ton of time creating and updating this is based solely on "personal preference".   

It is based on 3 things:
1)The math.
2) playtesting.
3) limiting "gimmicky" stuff.

Number 3 might be personal preference, but typically they try to limit incredibly powerful, low skill or dicey elements in the game.

When a new book first comes out, its comp is based only on the math.  Then they do playtesting and try to break the book to see if anything from #3 reveals itself.

Lastly, it isn't about penalizing anyone, it is about leveling the playing field so that more codex's can participate, and so that players don't have to wait 3-7 years between when their army is good, or hope to win the "codex lottery" as tau and eldar have done recently.

I never, never understand people who take GW products as gospel.  They make a beer and pretzel game.  It is not suitable for competitive tournaments.  Luckily, there are many huge fans who put in work to try to make it more suitable.

Even if swede comp were to become standard for BG events(unlikely, since so many of you already "know" it is bad), you can still play whatever you want on thursdays, or mondays, or non tournament saturdays.  If you want to play the silly beer and pretzels game, no one is stopping you.  But I'd like the events I spent 9-10 hours at to be a better competitive event than an "I spy" world championships.

[Cryptognomicon]

That is sort of my point. Comp puts overemphasis on list contents, and list contents aren't the reason people don't go to tournaments. People avoid tournaments because they are perceived to be full of assholes.

I know people who avoid entire events just because ONE person is entered in them, comp or no. And if you go with a gimpy list because of comp, what is to stop you from making up for it by being a slow-playing, rules-misquoting, mis-measuring piece of shit? Nada. Low sportsmanship? So what, if it doesn't affect your actual chances at victory of some kind?

A comp system comes with the inherent reassurance there will be less dickhead lists, but the dickheads who play those lists still get to come (and you get to listen to them whine all day right off rip because they couldn't bring their 4th Riptide that day).

All I was saying is I'd rather face a thousand bullshit lists than one bullshit player, and that comp rubrics do nothing to deal with that. You can't make a rubric that says like, "Was he nice? +1 point..." You know? A game with an asshole doesn't suddenly become good because the comp dented their list.

You need to rate the player, their sportsmanship, and their list in tandem to really get to the root of the problem.

I think this is a separate issue and isn't on the same plane as a comp system.  But valid points non the less.  But honestly there is no way to curve the player all you can do is make it so that person cant go all douche mode with his list and attitude.

Chase,

I see no reason why we couldn't as a community work to make this better then it is.  We may want to keep that separate however so it doesn't get lost in the mix of this pleasant thread so far.

Community,

I think we need to stop thinking of this comp as a penal system but as more of a point system to buy from.  Assigning points to a specific army shouldn't been seen as a nerf or a penalization but more as a guide.

I also think that some armies maybe orcs and others and such should get bonus points which would bring it more in line with how fantasy does their comp.  And give those weaker armies a better chance to compete.

My first thought on looking at comp as a point system is that there is already a point system built into 40k so why do/should we need another?

We have the Force Org Chart that already tells us how many of a certain unit type we can have and each unit is worth X amount of points.

[shwnlyns]

My first thought on looking at comp as a point system is that there is already a point system built into 40k so why do/should we need another?

We have the Force Org Chart that already tells us how many of a certain unit type we can have and each unit is worth X amount of points.

Because the current point system is broken, and people want to compete in a fair and balanced game. But some people like to play overpowered armies and feel good about themselves so who are we to take that away from them and enjoy the game for ourselves.