Author Topic: Swedish Komp System  (Read 32459 times)

Grimwulfe

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Re: Swedish Komp System
« Reply #150 on: January 31, 2014, 03:14:59 PM »
Quote
I really think implementing some kind of comp would at least make it appear like the events are trying to curb dickish behavior -- right now between the occasional but well-recalled horror story and the forum snapcasing, it looks like a total free-for-all down there.

I would like to state that Comp has nothing to do with dickish behavior that is a totally different thing and has nothing to do with Comp.
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andalucien

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Re: Swedish Komp System
« Reply #151 on: January 31, 2014, 03:38:10 PM »
Yeah... not really sure what incidents are being hinted at here... I can't remember ever having had an actual unpleasant game at Battlegrounds.  Even against "The Notorious Bennett"...
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keithb

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Re: Swedish Komp System
« Reply #152 on: January 31, 2014, 04:35:49 PM »
I can make a thread for you, bill mcfadden and matt bennett and you guys can just be all knee-jerky and make proclamations to each other based on nothing.
And it would be somehow unlike your knee-jerky reaction to adopt comp as your baby and proclaim this baby as the potential savior of 40k?

I haven't said anything of the sort. I've just explained how it works and the potential benefit.  I haven't suggested anywhere that battleground adopt it.  I am just trying to correct misconceptions about it and explain the pro's and con's.

Which is the more important thing at this stage.

Mike_k

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Re: Swedish Komp System
« Reply #153 on: January 31, 2014, 05:08:28 PM »
I can make a thread for you, bill mcfadden and matt bennett and you guys can just be all knee-jerky and make proclamations to each other based on nothing.
And it would be somehow unlike your knee-jerky reaction to adopt comp as your baby and proclaim this baby as the potential savior of 40k?

I didn't want to mention this, but I think it might lend a little perspective as to how this comes off to outsiders or casuals:

A player at my group mentioned wanting to attend a BG doubles event some months back. He asked me if I knew anything about Battleground Plainville, and what the 40k scene was like in their tournaments. Another of our people, one who played in a series of BG events at the time, spoke up before I could. He rolled his eyes and told the kid not to bother, because "It's just a bunch of Matt Bennetts Matt-Bennetting each other" down there.

Now, I know that's not true. But with posts like the above one, and many others I've seen in just the week I've been actively visiting, it's easy to see how that reputation could be formed in the public eye. The thing is I have been seeing more and more of this, lately. What is the deal? All this fighting can't be good for your respective playing groups, no?

This may be one of the only times I ever do this but I am going to defend Matt in this case. 

First it is coincidental that Matt has played two of the most powerful codex's in the past 4-5 years because he has OWNED those armies through the previous 4-5 years through which they where total garbage.

Secondly Matt tends to play and build his own unique lists but he is a smart enough guy to realize what units are good/great and which are bad.  Thankfully he doesn't netlist and just spam cheese units but plays the units he likes as well as some of the chosen codex's best unit.

It is pretty shitty that people at one store will bad mouth people at another store because Plainville tends to house the more competitive crowd.  I dont recall the last time I had a bad game due to the list I was playing against.  I know ALL of the members of my club has gone out of our way to befriend newer players, teach newer players, and not freely slaughter them even in tournaments without extensive tips and points to go along side any mistakes made etc.

I am proud of the crowd at PVille (wut wut) and how open we are despite being a very competitive crowd. 
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keithb

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Re: Swedish Komp System
« Reply #154 on: January 31, 2014, 05:21:54 PM »
The whole fucking benefit of a system like swede comp, is that plainville and abington people could all play what they want and have a decently balanced game.

AstartesXXVI

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Re: Swedish Komp System
« Reply #155 on: January 31, 2014, 05:58:42 PM »
Quote
I really think implementing some kind of comp would at least make it appear like the events are trying to curb dickish behavior -- right now between the occasional but well-recalled horror story and the forum snapcasing, it looks like a total free-for-all down there.

I would like to state that Comp has nothing to do with dickish behavior that is a totally different thing and has nothing to do with Comp.
Does it matter, if the store and the players seem to prefer to not address either?

It'd be less a game-changer and more a PR move. But I doubt anyone's interested in PR.

I'm not saying the few bad stories that have come to me are at all indicative of what actually happens there, but that doesn't matter -- it's what people think that affects their perception, not what is. I mean...I'm a stranger with the potential to introduce 60+ of my members to your store and its' events. Ask yourself: What do you want me to tell these people when they ask about Battleground?

Because right now, it's something like "Those guys fight with each other on their forum a lot. They have no rules for comp either, cause the store says it wants to sell as many Wave Serpents as it can."

That being said, it would be obviously useful to have a way to rate a lists' competitive levels, this Komp thing provides a canned solution for doing exactly that. Otherwise, ultra-competitive events with good payouts, no prerequisites, and no comp or punishment for misbehavior of any kind is a recipe for eventual disaster.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2014, 06:02:32 PM by AstartesXXVI »
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robpro

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Re: Swedish Komp System
« Reply #156 on: January 31, 2014, 06:04:13 PM »
I think you're making a lot of assumptions here that likely aren't true. Try going to a BG event sometime and rate the store based on your experience.

As for sportsman, BG gives out a Player's Choice prize at each tournament usually equal to about 2nd place.

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Re: Swedish Komp System
« Reply #157 on: January 31, 2014, 06:10:32 PM »
I think you're making a lot of assumptions here that likely aren't true. Try going to a BG event sometime and rate the store based on your experience.

As for sportsman, BG gives out a Player's Choice prize at each tournament usually equal to about 2nd place.

This

No one is saying the forums are not a mess, but AstartesXXVI mentioned seeing the mess and not willing to get into any details.  Not usually in my nature to do so, but calling you out.  What have you seen at which event or which Thursday 40k night have you seen to call this a "Free for All".  The pride I take in the way that everyone has acted at every event I have been to and the pride we take in sportsmanship in person is personal.  If you're not willing to discuss what you've seen it is not something that could (and would be addressed) by the regulars.

Moosifer

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Re: Swedish Komp System
« Reply #158 on: January 31, 2014, 06:32:45 PM »
Tchoff-tchoff-tchoff-tchoff-tchoff will you please leave your wife for me.  I can provide you with much boozahol!

AstartesXXVI

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Re: Swedish Komp System
« Reply #159 on: January 31, 2014, 06:51:28 PM »
This may be one of the only times I ever do this but I am going to defend Matt in this case. 

First it is coincidental that Matt has played two of the most powerful codex's in the past 4-5 years because he has OWNED those armies through the previous 4-5 years through which they where total garbage.

Secondly Matt tends to play and build his own unique lists but he is a smart enough guy to realize what units are good/great and which are bad.  Thankfully he doesn't netlist and just spam cheese units but plays the units he likes as well as some of the chosen codex's best unit.

It is pretty shitty that people at one store will bad mouth people at another store because Plainville tends to house the more competitive crowd.  I dont recall the last time I had a bad game due to the list I was playing against.  I know ALL of the members of my club has gone out of our way to befriend newer players, teach newer players, and not freely slaughter them even in tournaments without extensive tips and points to go along side any mistakes made etc.

I am proud of the crowd at PVille (wut wut) and how open we are despite being a very competitive crowd.
To a large extent I agree with you, even though Matt and I don't get along he is unfortunately the name people use when they mean the generalized "that guy" trope. People make mistakes, and if a guy gets a bad reputation, he'll never get to change if it's all anybody keeps throwing in his face. Unfortunately in my neck of the woods the name is associated with everything from arguments to tantrums to straight up cheating. Is it all true? I highly doubt it.

That being said, Matt also started swearing at someone here and in response to me saying it wasn't cool, he PMed me and proceeded to call me all sorts of things for mentioning my club at all here all this past week. That's the sort of behavior which is why he will probably never set foot in my club; I have to protect my people from that kind of thing, whether it's rare and justified or constant and looming. Either way, self-fulfilling at this point, because now I go back to my people with another Matt Bennett story that just refreshes any old negative stereotype on the poor dude.
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AstartesXXVI

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Re: Swedish Komp System
« Reply #160 on: January 31, 2014, 07:01:07 PM »
I think you're making a lot of assumptions here that likely aren't true. Try going to a BG event sometime and rate the store based on your experience.

As for sportsman, BG gives out a Player's Choice prize at each tournament usually equal to about 2nd place.

This

No one is saying the forums are not a mess, but AstartesXXVI mentioned seeing the mess and not willing to get into any details.  Not usually in my nature to do so, but calling you out.  What have you seen at which event or which Thursday 40k night have you seen to call this a "Free for All".  The pride I take in the way that everyone has acted at every event I have been to and the pride we take in sportsmanship in person is personal.  If you're not willing to discuss what you've seen it is not something that could (and would be addressed) by the regulars.

Rob's right. Some of what I have heard probably ISN'T true. At least exaggerated, I'm sure. But my point is merely that these stories exist, for whatever reason.

There is bleedover even as far apart as we are. And one guy shows up with a bad story, it sticks in peoples' heads longer than "Yeah it was great" tends to. Now I don't buy any of these stories as being as bad as they were depicted, and I have had many good experiences at BG all around -- but I reiterate, my whole point is merely that these stories exist. If you want to know, I am typing the list now, but I will not post it publicly because despite what it may seem I want Battleground to succeed and don't buy into these tall tales (outside the ones I lived through myself, which were few and far between). PM me if you are that interested, and I'll send it to you.


The reason why I am considering this an issue the way I am is that a lot of my new players are hearing these stories and avoiding even OUR events, because they are just under the impression that this is just the kind of thing that people go to tournaments to do, and how all guys act at them. I am planning a tournament in March and I have to work AGAINST that (wrongful!) reputation, being blanket-applied to ALL tournaments.


You guys are the gold standard around here when it comes to events. Your tournaments being more accessible is nothing but good for all of us. Especially for new people who think tournaments are only for assholes.
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Sir_Prometheus

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Re: Swedish Komp System
« Reply #161 on: January 31, 2014, 07:29:51 PM »
This may be one of the only times I ever do this but I am going to defend Matt in this case. 

First it is coincidental that Matt has played two of the most powerful codex's in the past 4-5 years because he has OWNED those armies through the previous 4-5 years through which they where total garbage.

Secondly Matt tends to play and build his own unique lists but he is a smart enough guy to realize what units are good/great and which are bad.  Thankfully he doesn't netlist and just spam cheese units but plays the units he likes as well as some of the chosen codex's best unit.

It is pretty shitty that people at one store will bad mouth people at another store because Plainville tends to house the more competitive crowd.  I dont recall the last time I had a bad game due to the list I was playing against.  I know ALL of the members of my club has gone out of our way to befriend newer players, teach newer players, and not freely slaughter them even in tournaments without extensive tips and points to go along side any mistakes made etc.

I am proud of the crowd at PVille (wut wut) and how open we are despite being a very competitive crowd.
To a large extent I agree with you, even though Matt and I don't get along he is unfortunately the name people use when they mean the generalized "that guy" trope. People make mistakes, and if a guy gets a bad reputation, he'll never get to change if it's all anybody keeps throwing in his face. Unfortunately in my neck of the woods the name is associated with everything from arguments to tantrums to straight up cheating. Is it all true? I highly doubt it.

That being said, Matt also started swearing at someone here and in response to me saying it wasn't cool, he PMed me and proceeded to call me all sorts of things for mentioning my club at all here all this past week. That's the sort of behavior which is why he will probably never set foot in my club; I have to protect my people from that kind of thing, whether it's rare and justified or constant and looming. Either way, self-fulfilling at this point, because now I go back to my people with another Matt Bennett story that just refreshes any old negative stereotype on the poor dude.

All right, that's it.

1)  I haven't posted in this thread since page 8

2) You brought up my name, and somehow I've been part of this conversation for 3 pages.

3) I most certainly did bitch you out via PM -- Because I thought you were being pompous, preachy, and condescending. I PM'd you because I wanted I didn't want to continue making a public scene of it, I just wanted you to stop.  Well, so much for that!

4) You have spent many, many pages in this thread about comp talking about how BG has such a bad reputation, everything is better where you play, everything would be fine if we weren't all jerks, and how up at the battle bunker you need to protect "your people".

5) I don't even think any of this is true (well, except for everyone thinking I'm an A-hole, that's totally true)  BG has a reputation for having a competitive scene -- which is totally deserved.  I certainly think that can drive less-competitve people away....and that's also probably justified, no one enjoys being totally outclassed.  But it's not a bad thing, in and of itself, in fact I think it's great.  BG has basically never had trouble getting huge attendance for it's tournaments, and recent drop-offs almost certainly have everything to do with turbulence in 40k, and nothing to do with BG.

6) Hey please stop telling us how we do everything wrong and you do everything right -- that was why I PM'd you saying you were being pompous, condescending and other names.  Feel free to tell me what a jerkhole I am -- preferably via IM.

7) I would really like to go back to discussing comp, now.  (and not how comp relates BG's general righteousness, moral standing, and reputation)

8) It is worth remembering that whatever we do comp wise the driver should be that it makes better, or more fun, games.  We all know that, I just think it's good to state it.  We all have slightly different notions of what makes a fun game -- personally I think one of the big things is that player skill should have a maximum effect on the game outcome -- I think recent changes in 40k have very much made that less true.  Base codex, gimmicky combos, and pure luck affect things far more than I think most of us would like. 

robpro

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Re: Swedish Komp System
« Reply #162 on: January 31, 2014, 07:33:16 PM »
Well said, Matt.

keithb

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Re: Swedish Komp System
« Reply #163 on: January 31, 2014, 07:33:56 PM »
Just as an aside.  I am a big fan of sportsmanship at events, with a meaningful(but not too substantial) impact.

But, what I don't want to see is my choice of list, so long as it is legal within the constraints of the event(points, books allowed, any comp or not, within the rules) have any bearing on the "sport" I am seen to be.  Nor would I just anyone else by that standard.

Issues like, slow play, overly argumentative, bullying, name calling etc... Should affect a sportsmanship score, because it really should be about how we conduct ourselves and not because I took a second riptide or wraithknight.

Right now, At templecon, I use a pass/fail system.  Where a fail needs to have an explaination of what behavior caused the failure.  Multiple failures exponentially affect your score negatively, to the point of being removed.

Adding in a pass/fail sports at BG events with a similar vein could work.  Could also implement a max failures per year/quarter/whatever, where you hit a 4th failure and you have to take a cooling off period for a while.

Just spitballing here.  But again, nothing to do with a comp score.

AstartesXXVI

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Re: Swedish Komp System
« Reply #164 on: January 31, 2014, 07:52:50 PM »
I have heard of systems similar to Templecon's, they help take the numbers out of things which really removes a lot of the gaming that goes on with actual sportsmanship scores. The data is also very valuable,  seeing consistent reasons for fails from people and all that. It's tough to do that with a list, though; no numerical component makes it harder to gauge. I guess the goal is key here -- is it a way for players and TOs to compare lists' power levels, or is it a way to score(or penalize) them in a tournament setting.
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