Long convo with GW today.

[Benjamin]

Expect to see more movement towards giving players the opportunity to use the models they own in games of 40k.

I'm unclear what this means. I can use my models currently (and lose).

The people that write the rules often don't remember what they write.

That's really not good. We can remember them all when we play.

They view the ~$200 start up cost as something that will provide the average person with a month's worth of "entertainment," comparable to roughly 3 video games.

This is a joke, right? I've been buying video games for a long time at less than $20, and most recently for less than $5. Maybe I'm not the target audience for GW, the spend-hundreds must-have-new-shiny player. But they clearly don't know what the entertainment market is like now, if they think $200 is even close.

The rep dislikes the fact that people that are not qualified to write articles on GWs financial situation, policies, or direction often write articles on the internet that people take as gospel.

Then maybe they should get a PR department.

[steelforge]

Thanks for sharing.
It's nice to know GW officially gives no sh*ts about their game.

Also it's a dividend company, I bet they'd like higher dividends which they'd get if they'd put in some effort.

As to their stock tanking:

They killed all internet sellers except via their website (doh!) Remember that one?  Hilarious!  It's almost like people want to buy things online with that internets.

And their supply chain is pathetic.  How long did I have to wait on Riptides and Farsight shoulder pads?
Sell the consumer what they want when they want it.  It's not the 1800's.

Hopefully they'll get it.  If I welcome our new plastic mans overlords when the company gets bought and I really hope it does.

[Mad Dok Rob]

Though, if it's not balanced for competitive play, it's not balanced for casual play either, is it?  It doesn't matter what he takes, my ork buddy can't really beat my tau, and that's with just a plain jane, not min maxed list.

Most people that read this board probably think something like, "I wonder what 10 man squad I can build that **IS** going to kill the 100 Orks."

and these two statements explain why my enthusiasm has been nil for playing 40k since 6th dropped.  and confirmation that they dont care tau and eldar blow the power curve kill the last hope i had of orks being fun again.

[Sir_Prometheus]

Well, I'm the kind of guy that wonders what 10 men could kill the 100 orks.  But, you and I want the same thing.  I want the game to be balanced, you want the game to be balanced.  I don't want to win just because Tau is my army....by the same token, I don't want to have to buy whatever the next hot army is just ot have a shot at winning a tournament. 

Re Matt's points:  I just can't take 40k seriously anymore.  And now we have confirmation GW doesn't either.  Rules matter, man.  That's what makes it a game.  Without good rules, we're just pushing models around and rolling dice. 

I spent so much time obsessing about this game and I'm now realizing it was mostly pointless. 

I spent about $220 bucks in two weeks on warmachine.  No regrets.  For a long while, I have regretted ANY money I spend on 40k outside of tournament admission. 

Warmachine is expensive too (though not nearly so much), and I don't know if, once I get good at it, it will be everything I'm looking for.  But I know just from reading their rules, their forums (run by them, and with honest to god rules rulings) that they at least respect their own game, and that they respect the people who want to buy their models and play it competitively.

[Chase]

WMH was built from the ground up to be a tournament / competitive game.  It grew up to fill in the void left by GW, who has not purposely built their game to be a tournament game.

They are both awesome.

40k didn't suddenly get 25% worse overnight.    People love it for all sorts of reasons, none more right than the other.  A book or two in a row weren't great.  The money-grab is more present than ever due to digital supplements.  Fortunately, we don't have to pay any mind to them if we don't think they're cool or fun or whatever (I suppose this is less true with the Tyranid book, which seems to be coming around more and more each day).
[edit: It wouldn't shock me if both IG and Orks were VERY powerful books.]


Are we all a little worried about wtf GW is doing?  Probably.  Have they made any drastic changes?  No, not really.

If people want to check out other games and systems, that's perfectly fine.  It is my guess that most people who do will return to 40k for the same reasons they started into the hobby to begin with.  Others will be psyched that they tried something new and liked it a lot.  Battleground will respond in a way that tries to best service what we feel the community wants.  If that means a more diverse event schedule, that's fine.  If it means taking on new product lines, that's fine too.

Both stores have a lot of WMH stuff, although Plainville is probably a lot lighter than it should be currently.  If WMH is the alternative people are looking towards, feel free to shoot me an email or PM and I'll help you as best I can.

It's my opinion that 40k and WHFB are the two coolest miniature war games out there today, but if people disagree that's okay.  It's just a shame they totally messed up MechWarrior Clix and D&D minis.  :/

[Erich]

It's my opinion that 40k and WHFB are the two coolest miniature war games out there today, but if people disagree that's okay.  It's just a shame they totally messed up MechWarrior Clix and D&D minis.  :/

Thanks for posting all this information Chase...the insight is important. I agree with your above sentiment. Wish I liked WMH more...to me it plays like a gimmicky card game where the whole objective is to let loose some powerful combo rather than feeling like a tactical game.

[Grimwulfe]

Maybe a good idea to post it on Dakka let the world know.

[Cryptognomicon]

Thanks Chase for the update. You are awesome.  Just wanted to say that. 

I really am getting frustrated with all the GW hate and can't wait for these forums to be about the game and not about the company.

The reason I love 40k and will keep playing it really comes down to one thing. The 40k universe!  GW has created such an amazing world with so much lore and story and as far as I have seen very few other companies have come close to emulating this. The only two exceptions to this is Star Wars and Lord of the Rings which are pretty amazing in their own right and I'm a HUGE fan of both of them. While I'm sure the games of Warmachine/Hordes is actually a lot of fun and Privateer Press has been doing an amazing job of crafting game rules, the world that WM/H takes place in doesn't come close to 40k in terms of engagement and excitement.  The 40k fluff is amazing and there is something for everyone.  The world is so huge(10K+ years over the span of an entire galaxy) that there is an infinite number of stories that could be told.  I'm currently working on a Tanith 1st IG army just because of my fandom for the Gaunts Ghosts books.  I've never actually played IG and a Tanith 1st list probably isn't all that "competitive" but that is not why I play. Maybe I am one of GW's target demographic where I play for fun with my friends and the rules be damned? perhaps.   All the people who say that they are quitting 40k because GW is "ruining" the game have the right to their opinion and we've heard their opinions over and over and over again on these forums. But the rules for the game don't at all change the world the game is played in.   Does it effect the tournament scene? Yes it does, but as everyone can tell TOs are modifying the rules for their events and per the rep GW is fine with that. Most of the problems that GW with the customer base is two things PR and Pricing. The fact that the rep said that they are looking at pricing is great news.  Hopefully they will get with it on the PR side. I have to say that two years ago their marketing was non-existent. Not I get emails from them about once a week. That is a huge step for a company that doesn't have a history of doing ANY direct marketing.  I agree with the rep that people are reading WAY TOO MUCH into their financial statements. 90% of people talking about GW financials online probably don't really know what they are talking about and people on forums and blogs are just making it worse. 

Anyway Chase, I just want to again say thanks to you and BG staff for being awesome and for giving us a great place to play this game.  I think that these updates from you are helpful and I hope that we can all get back to having "fun" playing again.

[andalucien]

Actually, it's funny... I've been reading some of the Warmachine fluff (like the stories and history in the Convergence of Cyriss army book, and the "spy reports" etc in No Quarter magazine) and I think it's vastly improved over where it was a few years ago when I last got curious.  They are really working hard to flesh out the world, and to engage talented writers and artists.  However, it takes a really long time to build up something to the level that the GW creative team has with the 40k universe.

The models production tech at Privateer is also a good 10 years behind GW quality (especially the plastic kits).   But again, catching up and not nearly as bad as it used to be.

I don't think I'd have a bone to pick with GW's stance if they stopped charging for the rules.  If they don't think rules are important, fine, do what some companies do release them as free pdf's.  I think it's disrespectful to market something as a premium product and then ask the people selling the product to spread the word that they don't actually spend any time or money on the content therein.

My fantasy at this point is that GW gets bought by Hasbro, and Hasbro announces, "We will be handle R&D for Warhammer and Warhammer 40k the same way we do it for Magic: The Gathering".  That would get me "back in" in a hurry.

[Erich]

My fantasy at this point is that GW gets bought by Hasbro, and Hasbro announces, "We will be handle R&D for Warhammer and Warhammer 40k the same way we do it for Magic: The Gathering".  That would get me "back in" in a hurry.

This would be lovely!

[Sir_Prometheus]

Yeah, if you're into the 40k fluff, fine.....but then we get to where it pisses me off that they haven't advanced the storyline AT ALL the last few editions.  In fact, it feels like they're specifically focusing on Horus Heresy they don't have to advance the current, 40k storyline.

There were hints in the GK codex about a "reset" button.  I want that thing to go off.  I want something to happen.  The ebon Dragon to go nutso.  A black crusade gets to Terra.  Something.


Regarding charging for rules: PP books cost way less (usually ~$30 for a BIG book), you have the option to get them in paperback or hardcover, and in many ways the rules are free anyway, as each model includes it's rules on a card.  (I really think they should just take the leap and offer free .pdfs, though, maybe sans-fluff, as I do strongly believe rules should be a loss leader -- but they're cheap enough it's hard to complain too much).  That, and they take their own rules seriously.  They are tight, technical, yet easy to understand.  They playtest, and when a FAQ/errata is required they get on that, quick.  There's none of this waiting 6-9 months to clear something up, or 4-5 years to rebalance something. 

Compare that with GW, who charges way, way more for much crappier, frankly often slap-dash rules.  The entire Inquisition codex was a copy and paste job, fer christ sakes!

[Chase]

Maybe a good idea to post it on Dakka let the world know.

I'm not going to get involved with that level of drama.  We all know there's more than enough fit throwing on these boards, of which I'm unfortunately a part of.

[Chase]

I hope that we can all get back to having "fun" playing again.

Me too, dude.  Me too.

Shit... maybe me MOST.

[keithb]

Few points.

I hope this attitude regarding events balancing the game is spread out more.  Fantasy guys accept that the game is terribly balanced and accept "Comp" to varying degrees, but 40k players go crazy when you mention it, or try to use it.

I will tell you guys one thing.  I don't play 40k anymore.  I stopped playing early last year after I could see what was happening with the game.  I felt the same about Fantasy when 8th edition hit.  When it first came out, it was fun for a bit, but when that wore off, there were some really big issues with the game.  The US(north east mostly) and European players all agreed that changes were needed,  different levels, different methods, but almost no one, barring midwest USA plays 8th edition "out of the box".

IF my only options were play 8th edition as GW wrote it. I would have sold my armies a long time ago.


As to the start up cost, GW seems to have no idea how much it actually costs to play the game.

I understand that people simply don't buy more models than they need, regardless of price.  However, GW recently has a ton of new and cool models, that have TERRIBLE in game rules.  Guess what, they don't sell.



I would gladly put in time to help come up with a common rules doc. or Comp rules for 40k if people would use it.

[Sir_Prometheus]

Yes, please.