Author Topic: Matt vs. Rob (one-sided) Escalation Battle Report.  (Read 4137 times)

Sir_Prometheus

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Matt vs. Rob (one-sided) Escalation Battle Report.
« on: December 20, 2013, 03:56:46 PM »

The point of this battle was to determine how unbalancing using super-heavies in "normal" 40k would, or would not, be.  A number of people claim that escalation is balanced, and relatively routine units such as deep-striking meltas can take care of super-heavies easily.  I have obviously been very vocal in that I think it's just destructive to normal play.

An important note: Rob and I apparently misunderstood each other -- his initial list included void shield (with three fields total), which is a natural response if you're going to be facing D weapons.  But from my perspective the goal was to try an Escalation list against a "standard" 40k list --which meant nothing from the stronghold book, either.  So I insisted that he replace the points with some else.  It certainly would have been more sporting had he been allowed to use the void shields (though I don't know how much it actually would have mattered, I certainly had the tools to pop 3 AV 12 shields before laying down D weapons) -- but to a large extent being sporting was the reverse of the point. Rob was claiming that Escalation was fine to use with "normal" 40k, I was claiming it would be destructive, that the only way to deal with a D-weapon super heavy was to take on of your own or something like void shields, that fortification with a D weapon, or maybe very specialized dedicated teams like Drop command squads filled with Meltas. 

I took:

1 Revenant.
1 Farseer on a bike.
3 x minimum squads of guardian jet bikes.
1 buff commander
1 Riptide, SMS & Ion, skyfire and intercept.
1 six man FW
1 Skyray
1 Aegis defense line with Quad gun.

Now, I was fairly sure Rob would be taking necrons, and probably at least 3 nightscythes.  I have 3 units with skyfire, you can look at it as tailoring to fight Rob list, but I think it was just covering my weaknesses.  The revenant can kill anything on the ground but can't do much to flyers, so obviously Flyers is what I need to protect against. 

Rob had:

Immotept (which replaced the void shield array)
Destroyer lord
6 wraiths.
3 X warriors (not sure how many) in a nightscythe, each accompanied by a Cryptek with staff
3 Annihilation barges.
1 Daemon prince with Black Mace, psychic powers, wings, power armor, etc...he was pretty kitted. 
10 cultists. 

I believe Rob's plan was to engage whatever super heavy with the daemon prince, SMash + rerolls should kill it.  Obviously the nightscythes with gauss and haywire staff would be great against vehicles too.

We roll for mission and it is Kill points, Dawn of war.  After pciking sides, Rob wins roll-off, wants me to setup first, he will seize ona 3+ (immotep + bonus from fighting a Lord of War) which he does.

I set up my Aegis with the quad gun pretty much center, Skyray goes behind that, as does the riptide, joined by the buff commander and jetseer.   Revenant is off to the side behind a building.  (and stupidly, 15" away).  For psychic powers, I rolled Guide, Forewarning (that's the one that gives you 4+, right?) and misfortune.  ALl my troops are reserved.

Rob deploys wraiths very central, Destroyer lord in front.  Two barges one side, 1 on the other, which also had the demon prince roughly lined up with my Revenant.

Top of Turn 1:
Rob seizes, moves everything up pretty much full move.  Daemon prince flies to within charge range of the revenant.  Immoteps lightning doesn't do anything.  1 barge snapfires at the revenant, surprisingly gets one hull point despite holo-field and 3+ cover.  No other shooting is significant. Wraiths run. 

Bottom of 1:
Farsee casts guide on Revenant.  I would like to cast 4+ invo on him but he's more 12", cuz I'm stupid, so I cast that on the riptide.  I misfortune the wraiths.  I'm worried about getting assaulted by the daemon prince.....turns out this is silly, as I can move 36" sideways, cuz eldar.  SO I move all the way to other end of my deployment line, in charge range of absolutely nothing.  36" is really far, guys.  You are never ever going to catch this thing unless you literally have the entire board flooded. 

The riptide squad, with farseer shooting the quad gun, twinlinked, skyfire, ignore cover, shoots down the Daemon prince easily. 

The Revenant shoots the wraith squad and kills them utterly, as well as the barge next to them, that I was able to clip with one blast.  Turns out there are like 3 or 4 different possible ways you might be intended to wound models with D weapons -- the table and the preceding paragraph are contradictory.  Excellent rules work yet again, GW! We went with "you see how many hits you get, then roll on the D table for each model, causing 0-bazillion wounds, until all the hits are exhausted".  Anyway, I think no matter how you counted it, they were gone. 

He has two barges left, I only have one skyray left to shoot, so I can't quite table him end of turn 1.  I could shoot seeker missiles to try to pop one but don't bother.

Top of Turn 2. 

Rob gets 2 Nightscythes in.  I intercept with SMS (only) from Riptide and the quad gun.  Each Nightscythe survives with only 1 hull point left.  He does not deploy from them, instead firing all the tesla at the revenant, surprisingly (to me, anyway) doing 4 hull points, bringing it down to 4 left.  (I will note that had I not been stupid, it would have had a 4+ invo and taken half that damage).  Barges too, I think. 

Bottom of turn 2:

My FW come in.  Farseer give 4+ to revenant, guides him, and misfortunes a nightsythe.  Riptide finishes off 1 nightsythe, skyray burns 3 seeker missiles (why not?) to waste the other.  Revenant hilariously overkills the two annihilation barges.  (they were right next to each other, I got 3 hits on one, 2 on the other) That's Game.

Tl;DR:  The none-superheavy player was tabled end of turn 2. 

Typhus

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Re: Matt vs. Rob (one-sided) Escalation Battle Report.
« Reply #1 on: December 20, 2013, 04:06:55 PM »
0000 - Rest Period - BUT YOU BETTER NOT SPEND FOUR WHOLE HOURS SLEEPING. IF YOU DO YOU ARE NOT ANGRY ENOUGH AND TOMORROW YOU GET THE FIRST CHANCE TO PLAY PIN THE TAU ON THE CARNIFEX.

Dan Bunker

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Re: Matt vs. Rob (one-sided) Escalation Battle Report.
« Reply #2 on: December 20, 2013, 05:12:42 PM »
Looks like the game went as anticipated. 36" move is very broken on that model, really takes most of the fun out of the game not having anywhere to hide. On a bright note though this solves most of the issues with games not finishing.

andalucien

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Re: Matt vs. Rob (one-sided) Escalation Battle Report.
« Reply #3 on: December 20, 2013, 05:30:02 PM »
Yes.... not much different from my experience...

yeah, on the bright side, you could have a 25-round tournament.
Name:  Matthew Forsyth
Club:  Errybody in the gettin tips
Where I play: basically I only show up for tourneys or when I'm on my way up to New Hampshire to visit my folks.  I live about 45 mins from both stores, to the south.

andalucien

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Re: Matt vs. Rob (one-sided) Escalation Battle Report.
« Reply #4 on: December 20, 2013, 05:31:32 PM »
Actually, about the void shields... not sure they would have mattered?  He didn't have enough models to flood the void shield radius right?  So even if you didn't feel like firing the riptide at the shield first or something, the revenant could have just jumped into the radius and thereby ignored them?
Name:  Matthew Forsyth
Club:  Errybody in the gettin tips
Where I play: basically I only show up for tourneys or when I'm on my way up to New Hampshire to visit my folks.  I live about 45 mins from both stores, to the south.

Sir_Prometheus

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Re: Matt vs. Rob (one-sided) Escalation Battle Report.
« Reply #5 on: December 20, 2013, 05:37:06 PM »
Well, I wouldn't have gotten in under the shield if it meant getting within charge range of the Daemon prince, or even the wraiths.  But I think popping the 3 AV 12 shield would only have taken a little extra firepower, firepower I did have available.

andalucien

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Re: Matt vs. Rob (one-sided) Escalation Battle Report.
« Reply #6 on: December 20, 2013, 05:39:50 PM »
I think Escalation makes Sisters of Battle more competitive.

Saint Celestine
2 sisters of Battle Squads in immolators
1 Revenant Titan

... ya know? 
Those sisters will be kicking some ASS.
Name:  Matthew Forsyth
Club:  Errybody in the gettin tips
Where I play: basically I only show up for tourneys or when I'm on my way up to New Hampshire to visit my folks.  I live about 45 mins from both stores, to the south.

robpro

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Re: Matt vs. Rob (one-sided) Escalation Battle Report.
« Reply #7 on: December 20, 2013, 07:00:36 PM »
I don't think one game proves anything, it just shows what we already knew - these are powerful units that require different tactics to handle.

I knocked 5 hullpoints off the revenant in 2 turns, and I made a mistake too (only one barge was in range to fire on it turn 1). We rolled up kill points, which is a mission type that favors the revenant over others (although it gives up 4 VPs if its killed, it will likely earn first blood and 2-3 kills before it goes). After Matt's objection to the void shield generator, I had to change my list fairly quickly (also under some time constraints). I would probably not have run the Prince at level 3 without the void shield generator to tuck him under, and the generator itself was 100 points, so there's about 175 points to fool around with.

The Tau potion of Matt's army killed considerably more than the Revenant, truth be told. Turn 1 the DP was in position to charge the Revenant if Matt forgot it could move 36, but it was also in position to get the jump on his riptide/buffcomander/farseer unit if he didn't move them away from the quad gun.

Two big pieces of LoS blocking terrain somewhat centrally located would really help mitigate the effects of the titan. Necrons also don't really have a good way to threaten the riptide/buffmander/farseer on turn 1, so armies with better tools to close early on would really have given his setup trouble.

All in all, I would say I had fun. I still had units in reserves or I wouldn't have been tabled. Matt, how do you think a 3k would go if both sides could have 1-2 super heavies if they chose, or cooler units kitted out to deal with those things? I don't think it would take 7 hours to play one of those. I think what we consider "normal" 40k is just evolving.

P.S. And Saint Celestine would have to be an ally for the Eldar to be able to run with a Revenant.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2013, 07:03:59 PM by robpro »

Thefallen

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Re: Matt vs. Rob (one-sided) Escalation Battle Report.
« Reply #8 on: December 20, 2013, 08:12:48 PM »
If you think the revenant is bad, FW's escalation update allowes for a rever battle titan which would straight up bitch slap the revenant with the 9 void shield generators. 

andalucien

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Re: Matt vs. Rob (one-sided) Escalation Battle Report.
« Reply #9 on: December 20, 2013, 08:51:38 PM »
P.S. And Saint Celestine would have to be an ally for the Eldar to be able to run with a Revenant.

Oh yeah, haha, I meant "Reaver Titan". 

Sisters have no superheavies in the Escalation book, but in Forgeworld's expanded list, they get access to the Navy Bombers and Warhounds and Reavers.
Name:  Matthew Forsyth
Club:  Errybody in the gettin tips
Where I play: basically I only show up for tourneys or when I'm on my way up to New Hampshire to visit my folks.  I live about 45 mins from both stores, to the south.

Chase

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Re: Matt vs. Rob (one-sided) Escalation Battle Report.
« Reply #10 on: December 20, 2013, 09:05:48 PM »
This was a good read.  Thanks for the report (seriously).
"In the absence of orders, go find something and kill it."
- Field Marshal Erwin Rommel

Sir_Prometheus

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Re: Matt vs. Rob (one-sided) Escalation Battle Report.
« Reply #11 on: December 21, 2013, 05:58:27 PM »
I don't think one game proves anything, it just shows what we already knew - these are powerful units that require different tactics to handle.

Well, OK, but it felt pretty conclusive to me, conclusive enough I don't especially feel the need to repeat the experiment.  My feeling was that you didn't really have a shot at winning, no matter what you did. 

Quote
I knocked 5 hullpoints off the revenant in 2 turns, and I made a mistake too (only one barge was in range to fire on it turn 1). We rolled up kill points, which is a mission type that favors the revenant over others (although it gives up 4 VPs if its killed, it will likely earn first blood and 2-3 kills before it goes). After Matt's objection to the void shield generator, I had to change my list fairly quickly (also under some time constraints). I would probably not have run the Prince at level 3 without the void shield generator to tuck him under, and the generator itself was 100 points, so there's about 175 points to fool around with.

I really think the daemon prince, had you rolled puppet master, would be your best chance to win.  But you didn't, and I don't think super-heavies having this one niche, single power weakness really illustrates anything.  I don't know how you think different mission types would make a difference:  your army didn't exist at the end of turn 2.  Mission type wasn't even relevant. 

As I mentioned, had I not been silly first round, you would have done only 3 hull points. 

Quote
The Tau potion of Matt's army killed considerably more than the Revenant, truth be told. Turn 1 the DP was in position to charge the Revenant if Matt forgot it could move 36, but it was also in position to get the jump on his riptide/buffcomander/farseer unit if he didn't move them away from the quad gun.

Huh?  Why do you think I would forget the revenant could move 36"  If I had, what would that prove?  The Tau killed the Daemon Prince and 2 nightscythes, pretty sure that's around 500 pts.  The revenant kill all the wraiths, the destroyer lord and 3 annihilation barges.  You'd have to do the math for me, but I'm pretty sure that's more points.  Unless you want to count the troops inside, but they didn't die, they were just forced into reserve (which they did not have a chance to come back from), and I think that's a little weird. 

Quote
Two big pieces of LoS blocking terrain somewhat centrally located would really help mitigate the effects of the titan. Necrons also don't really have a good way to threaten the riptide/buffmander/farseer on turn 1, so armies with better tools to close early on would really have given his setup trouble.

So any LOS blocking terrain would have to be REALLY big, as the revenant is quite tall (your old armorcast one I think is like half the height of the new one).  I also know of no big GT atm that's even trying two pieces of LOS blocking terrain, though NOVA is considering it.  What sort of army do you think could do better?  I can't think of any. 

Quote
All in all, I would say I had fun. I still had units in reserves or I wouldn't have been tabled. Matt, how do you think a 3k would go if both sides could have 1-2 super heavies if they chose, or cooler units kitted out to deal with those things? I don't think it would take 7 hours to play one of those. I think what we consider "normal" 40k is just evolving.

Well, I'm glad you had fun.  For me, there was little opportunity for the sort tactics and strategy I enjoy....just shooting fish in a barrel, really.  I don't understand your obsession with 3k battles....if you like those, you should probably play apocalypse.  Maybe a super-heavy makes more sense at those points levels, that wouldn't surprise me.....but I have no interest in playing 3k games, at least not routinely. 

Honestly, even at 3k, the game would still revolve around the super-heavy.  The game might last longer (the more points, the more time it takes to table) but the D weapons are still going to be removing very expensive units, the attributes of which -- their toughness, their cover, their wounds, etc -- now no longer really matter.  More points means you might have a better chance to kill the super-heavy, but it's still going to kill most of the important stuff before it dies.

Really, no matter how you slice it, the superheavy takes away a huge amount of the tactics and strategy of 40k.  They make a huge amount of factors usually present in a game -- the abilities of units, your movement, where you positioned them, whether they're in cover, or not, etc, completely irrelevant. 

Rob you seem to want to play Escalation at 3k (which to me, sounds no different than apocalypse).  OK?  Then you should find like-minded people who want to do that.  I don't have much interest in it, though, and I think it's clear it has no place in tournaments.  (beyond "galdiator" style tournaments, charity events where you can buy re-rolls, things like that)

Chase

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Re: Matt vs. Rob (one-sided) Escalation Battle Report.
« Reply #12 on: December 21, 2013, 06:11:21 PM »
I wonder if we shouldn't replace all instances of the word "superheavy" with "Revenant Titan."
"In the absence of orders, go find something and kill it."
- Field Marshal Erwin Rommel

Sir_Prometheus

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Re: Matt vs. Rob (one-sided) Escalation Battle Report.
« Reply #13 on: December 21, 2013, 06:19:29 PM »
Well, I think you saw very similar results with the Transcendant C'Tan when Matt Forsyth used it, and I think you'd see something very similar with the thunderhawk with Turbo-destructor.  You'll see to a lesser extent with whatever baneblade variant has the D weapon.  Really any time you see a blast D weapon, you'll see similar results. 

PhoenixFire

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Re: Matt vs. Rob (one-sided) Escalation Battle Report.
« Reply #14 on: December 21, 2013, 06:20:37 PM »
Very detailed battle rep.

There's no doubt superheavies are fun to play but I think when BG does do an event that allows them (hey Chase any idea when that 3k tournament is happening?) I forsee an army without a super heavy winning