Escalation and Stronghold are launched!

[shwnlyns]

So....you're trying to sell is on it by invoking Jar-jar?  :/

I don't much care that void shields balance out D weapons. D weapons just really shouldn't be a thing.

I'm not selling anything dude, just trying to offer helpful advice. If you don't like the D weapons then go play warmachine. The game changes all the time, no point in complaining.

I'd have to disagree with this. Most people who play 40k have spent years and thousands of dollars on their armies and don't want to have to give it up in favor of another game because the rules have spiraled out of control.

[andalucien]

It's also just that the "escalating" is happening SO FAST.   It makes it seem like buying any of these "problem fixing" models might not be the greatest investment, because next month something will come out that completely changes the landscape again.  Coming back to the difference between a wargame and a CCG or video game.  It's tough to say to one's self, "Oh Revenants seem good now, sure I'll drop $400 on it and spend the next month painting it.  If in 6 months, they've invented Double-D weapons, which instantly remove all titans from the table, no big deal, I'll just buy the new Double-D cannon and switch to IG so I can play that instead."   

[MM3791]

I can only speak for how the new changes will effect the meta, I can't speak on what players are personally going to do.. but people also had similar concerns about allies and flyers. I think the next logical step it just to play with it for the next few months and then make a decision.

[andalucien]

OK, I've read through Stronghold Assault now...

Some thoughts:

1.  This book makes buildings make so much more sense.   I think that everyone should immediately start using the building rules from this book to cover the aegis lines, bastions, skyshield landing pads, etc.  Honestly buildings before this book were a half-baked ruleset and I bet if you went to 20 game stores and saw how people were treating a blast landing on top of a unit on top of a bastion's battlements, you'd see them play it 10 different ways (does the building get hit?  can battlements be damaged without the main building being damaged?  etc).  And let's not even start with the Skyshield pad.

2.  The new fortifications (Firestorm REdoubt etc) have different rules with fewer holes in them (and more options) here.  The redoubt actually says that 6 people can fire out of the 3" wide firepoint... makes a lot more sense than just treating it as a normal firepoint.

3.  I don't think this book does anything to mitigate D weapons.   Void shields won't do anything to stop D weapons.  All you need to remove a void shield is to glance av12.  So, you shoot an autocannon at it or something, the shield goes down, and THEN you shoot your D weapon.   So you're spending 25 pts or so to make someone burn enough firepower to glance av12 once, that's all.

Basically, I love this book, except for the D Weapons.  Nothing else in here screams "scary" to me, and it's all useful.

[MM3791]

3.  I don't think this book does anything to mitigate D weapons.   Void shields won't do anything to stop D weapons.  All you need to remove a void shield is to glance av12.  So, you shoot an autocannon at it or something, the shield goes down, and THEN you shoot your D weapon.   So you're spending 25 pts or so to make someone burn enough firepower to glance av12 once, that's all.

Basically, I love this book, except for the D Weapons.  Nothing else in here screams "scary" to me, and it's all useful.

Keep in mind two things

1) You can buy the Void Network and get 3 generators, each generator can power 3 shields. So that's 9 shields total that a player can field, for about 1/3 the cost of a titan. I think the shields can overlap too.

2) If someone is bringing a titan with D weapons, how many autocannons do you really think they'll be able to field? Especially in a 1850 point game, they'll have a titan and like 2 squads lol. Points cost and model count still have to be taken into effect.

[Sir_Prometheus]

I can only speak for how the new changes will effect the meta, I can't speak on what players are personally going to do.. but people also had similar concerns about allies and flyers. I think the next logical step it just to play with it for the next few months and then make a decision.

Yeah?  I STILL don't think flyers were a good idea.  But this is way more half-assed than that.

OK, I've read through Stronghold Assault now...

Again, I find myself of one mind with Matt on this.

[Typhus]

Seeing as everything listed in Escalation and Stronghold are "Optional" in a permissive ruleset, the sky isn't falling, and this won't change most games.  It's really not that big a deal.

[Chase]

Play a couple games against Str D and get back to me.  I'm about 90% on both Matts singing a different tune after the fact.

[Typhus]

Play a couple games against Str D and get back to me.  I'm about 90% on both Matts singing a different tune after the fact.

Don't get me wrong, Apoc games, or games with Lords of War are fun and I enjoy giant metal machines of death.  I'm saying that Escalation is optional and no tournament is going to use it as part of a normal game of 40k.

[Sir_Prometheus]

Play a couple games against Str D and get back to me.  I'm about 90% on both Matts singing a different tune after the fact.

Don't get me wrong, Apoc games, or games with Lords of War are fun and I enjoy giant metal machines of death.  I'm saying that Escalation is optional and no tournament is going to use it as part of a normal game of 40k.

Really?  Because that's not what a lot of other people seem to be trying to tell me.  I have no objection to it existing as an optional expansion, same way I have no problem with apocalypse (but I also have no interest in either).  What I have a problem with is everyone telling me this is supposed to be part of "normal" 40k now.

And Chase, we all HAVE played with D weapons before.  We've all played the smaller apocalypse games that only had one or two super heavies.  I didn't like it.  Anything that wasn't a super heavy felt pointless, there was no reason to take infantry at all beyond scoring. 

[andalucien]

Play a couple games against Str D and get back to me.  I'm about 90% on both Matts singing a different tune after the fact.

I suppose I will (maybe even at next BG tourney).  But it's not like it's hard to understand what these weapons do.    If one clips my Greater Unclean One (or anything else in my superheavy-less army), unless they roll a 1 to wound, he is removed from play. 

[Grimwulfe]

On the bright side of this it appears that the majot TOs are on the same page and should hopefully have some restrictions/guidlines done soon.

[andalucien]

Keep in mind two things

1) You can buy the Void Network and get 3 generators, each generator can power 3 shields. So that's 9 shields total that a player can field, for about 1/3 the cost of a titan. I think the shields can overlap too.

2) If someone is bringing a titan with D weapons, how many autocannons do you really think they'll be able to field? Especially in a 1850 point game, they'll have a titan and like 2 squads lol. Points cost and model count still have to be taken into effect.

I guess that if you bought 300 points worth of shield generators, and just clustered your entire army up underneath that area, it might stop a Revenant from killing everything underneath WITH ITS GUNS for 2 turns or so.    Can you imagine playing a game like that?  In your head does it seem fun?

Also, you'd have to make sure that you completely filled the area under the void shields with your guys.  If you don't, the revenant will just jump 36" so that its toe sticks underneath one edge of the void shield, and now it doesn't need the shields to go down in order to blow up everything underneath with its 4 D blasts.

Maybe it's really just the revenant that is truly problematic?   Eh... i think it's the D... and the Revenant is just making that really obvious since it brings more D than anything else.

[Tharcil]

OK, I've read through Stronghold Assault now...

Some thoughts:

1.  This book makes buildings make so much more sense.   I think that everyone should immediately start using the building rules from this book to cover the aegis lines, bastions, skyshield landing pads, etc.  Honestly buildings before this book were a half-baked ruleset and I bet if you went to 20 game stores and saw how people were treating a blast landing on top of a unit on top of a bastion's battlements, you'd see them play it 10 different ways (does the building get hit?  can battlements be damaged without the main building being damaged?  etc).  And let's not even start with the Skyshield pad.

2.  The new fortifications (Firestorm REdoubt etc) have different rules with fewer holes in them (and more options) here.  The redoubt actually says that 6 people can fire out of the 3" wide firepoint... makes a lot more sense than just treating it as a normal firepoint.

3.  I don't think this book does anything to mitigate D weapons.   Void shields won't do anything to stop D weapons.  All you need to remove a void shield is to glance av12.  So, you shoot an autocannon at it or something, the shield goes down, and THEN you shoot your D weapon.   So you're spending 25 pts or so to make someone burn enough firepower to glance av12 once, that's all.

Basically, I love this book, except for the D Weapons.  Nothing else in here screams "scary" to me, and it's all useful.

More posts like this.  I like hearing more from people reading the rules, citing examples and then commenting either way (good or bad).  I really feel like this thread is a lot of knee jerk reaction venting and could use a little more analytical commentary.  Thank you!

[steelforge]

Should this actually become dogs and cats living together it can be solved.

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2013/12/goaboys-monday-nonsense-i-dont-want-to.html

Makes many excellent points for improvement.