Escalation and Stronghold are launched!

[andalucien]

Got to admit, it's fun reading through these units and thinking about their effect on a normal 40k game... haha.  Not playing a lot of apocalypse I've never really read these before. 

I have to say though, D weapons seem too good to be any fun.  If each side has one lord of war, it seems like whichever one has D weapons will simply vaporize the other one.

[andalucien]

The Stormlord.....   hahahaha..... can shoot 30 s6 ap3 shots at 2 different targets.  And 20 models can sit inside of it and fire out.    THAT'S a firebase right there    

[Chase]

Seems like you should play in the Megabattle, Matt.

Also, some of the guys played a game tonight with a Warhound Titan.  The consensus was that it was fine.

They used the mission where the objective was to kill the superheavy.

[Grand Master Steve]

I want to play a standard game using my thunder hawk to see what it's like

[Chase]

So do it, homie.  Set up a game.

[Grand Master Steve]

My work schedule is to unpredictable. I can't even set up a doctors appointment let alone a game. I usually don't know my schedule until the week before which isn't enough time for people

[Chase]

If you say so. 

[The_Chef]

I could take this challenge.

[Sir_Prometheus]

I really don't want to play with Destroyer weapons.  No, not even the tournaments that allow Forge-world.  Yes, it's an answer to the 2+ rerollable aves....I don't care, we should make another solution to that like just saying you can't have any better than 3+ rerollable. 

[andalucien]

That would be my preferred approach as well, which I've repeated to whoever will listen.  If 2+ reroll saves are the problem, why not just take the direct approach and say, it can never happen?   I actually was never a fan of 3+ rerollable saves either (I kinda hated playing Fateweaver back in 5th even though it was good).

Yeah, the problem with D weapons is:

It takes a long time to build paint a warhammer model.  It takes a longer time to build and paint a BIGGER warhammer model.

It should be a very rare occurrence to put down your centerpiece model (greater daemon, land raider, etc) and have it removed from the table before you even get to do anything with it.

With D Weapons in the mix, it will be THE MOST LIKELY OUTCOME.  Literally, if you play against someone with a Revenant and they go first, they will MOST LIKELY REMOVE YOUR TOUGHEST UNIT BEFORE YOU TAKE A TURN (as well as at least one other unit).  It just isn't a good idea for a hobby game.   

[andalucien]

It is kind of a quandary though.  Mike's point about requiring a while to sort this all out is a good one.

If we ban d weapons, aren't we back to deathstars being unbeatable and making game unfun?
If we ban 2++ rerollable, aren't we back to tau/eldar shooty armies tabling people and making game unfun?
If we limit that, do space marine bikers with universal hit and run become the new bugbear?

Maybe... but now you're in the realm that seems possibly addressable using subtler measures, like missions and using more terrain (and maybe my Dynamic Scarcity Based Pricing Algorithm, haha).  Also, as you go farther down that list above, the dominant armies start to look less and less like "This prevented a real game from occurring" and more like "This army was hard to beat".

[Sir_Prometheus]

Erm, to some extant, there will always be a "toughest unit/codex", I'm not sure we can waste time worrying about that.  Yes, banning 2+ rerollable will make something else the nastiest unit out there, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't do it.  It's an obvious unintended loophole in the rules. 

I think it's clear that the only reason that Escalation exists is that GW was sad that too few people bought their apocalypse book, and they made all these big fancy models for it, so they're trying to force the issue and somehow say that you "must" allow apocalypse units in 40k.  I see no reason to support them in that. 

Stronghold, on the other hand, sounds like it has a bunch of "optional" rules that are really clarifications for fortifications rules (which have never been very clear) which should have been in the main rulebook from the beginning.  Since they screwed up the first time, these should be in a FAQ/errata.  But GW has apparently decided they don't need to do free FAQs anymore, they can just charge you to fix their bad rules.

It seems likely we would probably want to use those "optional" rules.  I don't think that means we have to allow all these alternate fortifications, and certainly none with D weapons. 

Also, it sounds like Stronghold has no Xenos buildings, none at all.  Screw you, GW!

[Chase]

If 2+ reroll saves are the problem, why not just take the direct approach and say, it can never happen?

Instead of inventing arbitrary solutions to the perceived problems with the metagame, why not just use the solutions they present to us?

So in years of agonizing of all of the stuff that comes with the Megabattle, Str D has always been at the forefront.  I think this year will be the... 6th or 7th, and one conclusion that I've come to (and I believe it's shared by almost all the veterans who've play in it a bunch) is that Str D is always blown way out of proportion and is always less effective than people think it will be.

Like, how many "2000 point (or less), Str D included" games has the entire community of Battleground played?  I'm guessing it's less than 10.


Fact:  Str D provides a solution to some of the generally accepted "problems" with the current metagame.

I'm very surprised more people aren't open minded about something like this.  Especially considering very few people have played a "normal" game against Str D.


Edit:  I am basically positive that the "best" 1850 and 2000 point lists in a Str D, Superheavies allowed environment contain exactly zero of each.

[the_trooper]

If 2+ reroll saves are the problem, why not just take the direct approach and say, it can never happen?

Instead of inventing arbitrary solutions to the perceived problems with the metagame, why not just use the solutions they present to us?

So in years of agonizing of all of the stuff that comes with the Megabattle, Str D has always been at the forefront.  I think this year will be the... 6th or 7th, and one conclusion that I've come to (and I believe it's shared by almost all the veterans who've play in it a bunch) is that Str D is always blown way out of proportion and is always less effective than people think it will be.

Like, how many "2000 point (or less), Str D included" games has the entire community of Battleground played?  I'm guessing it's less than 10.


Fact:  Str D provides a solution to some of the generally accepted "problems" with the current metagame.

I'm very surprised more people aren't open minded about something like this.  Especially considering very few people have played a "normal" game against Str D.


Edit:  I am basically positive that the "best" 1850 and 2000 point lists in a Str D, Superheavies allowed environment contain exactly zero of each.

A 40k player on hiatus because of the awful balancing being done (read: none) on the part of GW, this might actually be something that balances the ridiculous.

GW has started borrowing ideas from other game systems recently in an effort to make the game better (read: sell more models- making the game better is a way to sell more models). The idea of giving things that level the playing field is something that other companies do to add some spice while balancing the game.

If everyone has something broken, then none of it is broken as it becomes balanced.

[MM3791]

Plus Titans can't hit flyers.. overall I think people are just reacting to a sharp change in the meta, especially if they've never played Apocalypse before. Every unit always has a counter, rock-paper-scissors type. That's why I'm against banning certain units, when someone bans a unit, they create an unintended butterfly ripple effect.. that's why I say that it's better to play with all the rules then just some. All the rulesets are part of a larger ecosystem

BTW I just saw a battle report where Be'lakor mind controlled the Eldar Revenant Titan.. so that's why I don't think banning character sheets is a good idea either. Without certain units in the meta, other units would absolutely run wild.