What books, sheets, supplements, other rules should we allow?

[Sir_Prometheus]

I kinda had an epiphany last night.  For years there's been a perennial argument about what GW considers "official", mostly revolving around Forgeworld.  GW answers, if any, usually boil down to some form of "anything is legal if you want it to be".  But for competitive players, for the tournament goers, "official" usually matters, we want to have a "standard" definition of what a "typical" 40k game can or cannot include. 

Thoughts like this made me fret about the Inquisition codex.  Despite being a horrible slap-dash copy and paste hack job, it did seem to be "official", and that seemed to mean we were stuck with it.  (I say all this as GK player with a lot of Inquisition models ready to go)  (I will also say while I think it's more than a little lame you can just slap inquisitors wherever you want, it's not horribly broken.  It just lacks in the usual opportunity costs.)

But the dataslates appear to be "official" too, right?  Which made me realise I suddenly feel no need to care about what GW considers "official".

Which means, as a community, we need to have a talk about what should and should not be allowed -- we can't just assume because GW released it it's legit anymore.

I think it's pretty clear none of think these Dataslates or "formations" should be allowed, I didn't see a lot of dissent in Matt Forsyth's post. 

But what about Inquisition?  Is that something we want?  DO we want Coteaz's everywhere?  (hey man, I have one ready to go)

Personally, I like the supplements, I think they're fun and fluffy without being broken (that little O'vesa problem aside) but since some of them are digital only, I think it's fair to involve them in the discussion.  (all of them, I believe, are slated to be physical books eventually, I understand it is mostly a printer backlog). 

So, poll.  I think this should be moved more for the "competitive" tournaments, not the one's where we allow FW.  (that would be a different poll)

[andalucien]

Nice usage of poll

[Tharcil]

I went with "You people are whiners!"  However, I like the trend for BG of running tournaments mixing up what is allowed.  I enjoy occasionally allowing Forgeworld, double force org, just bring a tank, and 1850 (codex and supplement only.  I would willingly take in dataslates into the mix. 

I would not enjoy any of these being the standard all of the time, I'm one of those "variety is the spice of life," people.

[Sir_Prometheus]

I went with "You people are whiners!"  However, I like the trend for BG of running tournaments mixing up what is allowed.  I enjoy occasionally allowing Forgeworld, double force org, just bring a tank, and 1850 (codex and supplement only.  I would willingly take in dataslates into the mix. 

I would not enjoy any of these being the standard all of the time, I'm one of those "variety is the spice of life," people.

I think this should be moved more for the "competitive" tournaments, not the one's where we allow FW.  (that would be a different poll)

Just sayin'.  I like that we have both "competitive" and "fluffy" tournaments too, and I enjoy both, but this was meaning more for the former. 

[PhoenixFire]

I don't see any major tournaments banning the Inquisition codex, yes its ridiculous that now you can have 3 different codexs in an army list but i think we're stuck with it.


As far as the dataslates ts going to be up to the TOs to either allow them all or deny them all, i don't see anyone cherry picking which one is and isn't legal.

Belkator or whatever his name is doesn't seem very broken

Tau firebase cadre took some of the best units in the Tau codex and made them OP for no additional point cost

I still think it's a bit to early to judge, we may as well wait and see what they ALL are before we cry "witch! burn her!"

Dataslates could be a great way to add spice to a subpar codex without having to do a whole supplement. for example rumor is DA are getting a Cypher dataslate... and DA is without question the weakest 6E codex

[andalucien]

I don't see any major tournaments banning the Inquisition codex, yes its ridiculous that now you can have 3 different codexs in an army list but i think we're stuck with it.

Well, Mike Brandt and Reecius (2 of the 3 most prominent TO's in the USA) have both posted open questions on their blogs recently, asking people for ideas about what to do to maintain a positive competitive environment.  They both seem to be open to ignoring or changing rules published by GW, and have both been openly critical of the nature Codex: Inquisition.  So I wouldn't say this is off the table.

[Chase]

I'm psyched the poll feature finally works! 

[keithb]

I don't see any major tournaments banning the Inquisition codex, yes its ridiculous that now you can have 3 different codexs in an army list but i think we're stuck with it.

Well, Mike Brandt and Reecius (2 of the 3 most prominent TO's in the USA) have both posted open questions on their blogs recently, asking people for ideas about what to do to maintain a positive competitive environment.  They both seem to be open to ignoring or changing rules published by GW, and have both been openly critical of the nature Codex: Inquisition.  So I wouldn't say this is off the table.

They understand the game is heading in a bad and unfun direction.   It isn't fun to start a game and basically be helpless.  Just like it wasn't fun in fantasy when you can coin flip to see whose super spell crushed the other guy first.

[Chase]

It isn't fun to start a game and basically be helpless.

Fact.

[Mad Dok Rob]

They understand the game is heading in a bad and unfun direction.   It isn't fun to start a game and basically be helpless.  Just like it wasn't fun in fantasy when you can coin flip to see whose super spell crushed the other guy first.

Oh, I guess that is the reason my Orks get no play time anymore...

[Mad Dok Rob]

Tau firebase cadre took some of the best units in the Tau codex and made them OP for no additional point cost

But they are not OP because they have a totally balancing rule that lets SM hit them better in melee....

But even though SM have the hatred rule, they still have no problem working with a Tau formation.  What was it, Kill the alien, Burn the witch, purge the heretic.  Seems like now give everyone a big huge and a cupcake...unless you are a bug.

 

[Thefallen]

I think any codex(IAs included) or supplements that have a physical book that can be purchased by or through Battlegrounds should be allowed. I also think a data sheet character/unit would be fine as it is only a single unit of rules and a model that can be purchased or ordered through BG. if it were up to me I wouldn't allow any digi only codex supplements. I think they are a big FU to players and local gaming stores. I suppose the special character data sheets are also, just to a smaller degree but its 1 unit and 1 page of rules. Now if a player wanted to play a digi only codex/supplement  and they printed it out and gave that copy to battlegrounds for TO review and to have as a public copy for players to review in store only(not for sale as that would violate copy right laws) just so everyone curious about them can understand what it means to the game. I personally would be ok with it's inclusion to competitive play.   

[Karvala]

The dataslates, Escalation and Stronghold assault are all intended for use in 'standard games of 40k', just like Forgeworld models and units.

GW itself has not generally allowed FW units into tournaments - ArdBoyz, Throne of Skulls, and this can be seen in the latest version of 'The Warrior's Code' from Warhammer World.

Why? Because 'Tournament 40k' is not 'Standard 40k'. What is great and cool from a narrative point of view can be used and exploited in a min/maxed tournament list. That isn't what GW designs all these rules for - their repeated description of the game is as a 'beer and preztels' type casual game.

If the new rulebooks make sense for tournament play, they should be used.

If they introduce rules which make tournament play less fun, less balanced, then they should be excluded.

'Official' rules are not necessarily tournament rules. GW does this themselves so independent TO's should not take flak for doing the same.

[Grimwulfe]

Karvala I have no idea who you are but well said.

[Sir_Prometheus]

(he's from the 11th company forums, I linked to here)

It was well said.  Problem is we're working off different definitions of "official", and many people think if you're not willing to use dataslates, FW, whatever, really, you're essentially instituting a form of comp. 

I have to say I am very surprised by the results of this poll.  I kinda assuming several people picked the "dataslates" option because they liked the line "you're all a bunch of whiners", but still, for those who advocate this, are just not familiar with what these dataslates do and will entail?  Why should anyone who wants to do be able to cherry pick riptides and SM flyers, and why should these units get additional rules for free?

I am also a little surprised that one ONE person who didn't support the dataslates supported the inquisition Codex, though I agree, they're mostly the same level of silly. 

After this goes on for a little while longer, I think the poll may have to be redone, but with trimmed options.  (namely #'s 2 &4)