whoooooaaaaaaahhhhhhhh

[andalucien]

Maybe BG can go to kinko's and print out the pages of the digital codexes, and sell THOSE!  That's legal right?

[PhoenixFire]

Maybe BG can go to kinko's and print out the pages of the digital codexes, and sell THOSE!  That's legal right?

you have to know the secret handshake to access the behind the counter "special stock"

[Sir_Prometheus]

I think, generally speaking, there are enough serious gamers (like 10 or more) at any main BG tournament that it would be hard to put one over on people.

I also agree with Keith, no one is forging .pdfs or anything.

[Grand Master Steve]

People will have to get over this.

Or BG simply wouldn't allow at tournaments the supplements they cannot sell, which people also would have to get over.

Instead of the complaining I read this is the best compromise I have read.

[Ian Mulligan]

The fact this discussion is happening demonstrates how idiotic GW has been.

[Chase]

Yup.

Less than ideal.  No sense in worrying about it too much.  Instead, we'll just have to focus on doing what we do better and better and hope the community continues to support the store and our events.

[keithb]

People will have to get over this.

Or BG simply wouldn't allow at tournaments the supplements they cannot sell, which people also would have to get over.

That is fine, but I suspect many people will take exception to not being able to use legal army books.  this is not like the FW situation.

[keithb]

The fact this discussion is happening demonstrates how idiotic GW has been.

I think it is the yearly(quarterly?) challenge for the executives.  Who ever makes the customers scratch their heads dumbfounded the longest gets the biggest bonus.

[Sir_Prometheus]

I, for one, would be very upset if I was not allowed to use farsight units. 

[andalucien]

I think that budgeting 15 minutes for army explanation/discussion at tourneys, and having it be an EXPECTED thing (not something you complain about how it's taking up game time), is a GREAT idea. 

Plus, if two guys play who already know each others' armies well, they can just get a head start on the actual game.  Maybe it will result in fewer games going to time (not having space for 7 turns) in those situations.

[keithb]

If everyone has an army list what is the issue?  An army list with the stats of units/models, and a run down of all the special equipment should be fine,  people should ACTUALLY LOOK at these things.

The only things that need to be explained are special rules and unique psychic powers.

[andalucien]

Yeah, all codexes have unique special rules that are important to the functioning of the army and couldn't be understood by looking at an army list.  Even Sisters. 

Also, many army lists don't contain all the special rules (even book rules) and stats of weapons possessed by each unit.  Army Builder printouts can contain this info, but if they do, the list is about pages long (thus, 15 minutes to read and understand it seems reasonable).  If you choose "tournament summary" option when printing your list, it doesn't include things like the stats of weapons.

[Sir_Prometheus]

I don't actually think it's reasonable to expect the opponent to know your codex --  there should always be some explanation.  Ok, it's all fine that my army list says a guy has "Neuro Web System Jammer", but what does that actually mean?  What do psykotroke grenades do, and are they different than psyke-out grenades?  (they are) What the hell is a plasma siphon? Is an Iron Halo any different than a Rosarius (no, actually).

In practice I skip it with a lot of the more seasoned players I know....not because they know every little thing every piece of wargear does, but because they have a vague idea what the army does and what questions to ask. 

But yes, for any newer player or player I don't know, I start saying, "this unit does this, and that unit can do that, and just so you know my hammerheads have sensor spines, etc.". 

[keithb]

Yeah, all codexes have unique special rules that are important to the functioning of the army and couldn't be understood by looking at an army list.  Even Sisters. 

Also, many army lists don't contain all the special rules (even book rules) and stats of weapons possessed by each unit.  Army Builder printouts can contain this info, but if they do, the list is about pages long (thus, 15 minutes to read and understand it seems reasonable).  If you choose "tournament summary" option when printing your list, it doesn't include things like the stats of weapons.

I always print this stuff out from AB.  And it takes 1 page.  I also quickly explain the range of weapons and what they are.  This never takes more than 4 minutes to do.

So, your point is that all the books, even the hard cover ones need to be explained to opponents.  So what is the issue with non hard cover?  Just that it is on PDF and you have to look at a screen instead?

[andalucien]

Yeah, all codexes have unique special rules that are important to the functioning of the army and couldn't be understood by looking at an army list.  Even Sisters. 

Also, many army lists don't contain all the special rules (even book rules) and stats of weapons possessed by each unit.  Army Builder printouts can contain this info, but if they do, the list is about pages long (thus, 15 minutes to read and understand it seems reasonable).  If you choose "tournament summary" option when printing your list, it doesn't include things like the stats of weapons.

I always print this stuff out from AB.  And it takes 1 page.  I also quickly explain the range of weapons and what they are.  This never takes more than 4 minutes to do.

So, your point is that all the books, even the hard cover ones need to be explained to opponents.  So what is the issue with non hard cover?  Just that it is on PDF and you have to look at a screen instead?

Yeah, I don't think it makes any difference to my point whether the codex is hardcover or digital.
   
What is making this "15 minute explanation period" more necessary than it used to be is

- codexes (counting supplements) are coming out 5 times as fast as they used to
- There are many MORE legal codexes and variants than there used to be (especially if ForgeWorld becomes universally acceptable)
- many codexes aren't sold through game stores, aren't sitting there on the shelves, so it's more likely that the person will have never seen it before
- since the store isn't selling the codex, it's much more likely that there is no one else in the store (including employees) who knows the codex's rules.  I guess this one is less related, but it just enhances the sense of "being thrown into the river and asked to swim" when playing against a heretofore unknown unit.