[Plainville MA] Warhammer 40k 1850pt Singles Tournament (DaBoyz Primer) - 11/9

[Chase]

Yup, there's still space.  Everyone is still in my email and I have yet to make an actual list, but fewer than 40 people have signed up, although I have a feeling we're gonna have a good turn out.

[cryptoron]

I'll know Monday wether or not I can take the day off of work.

[andalucien]

I'm not bringing the Sisters partially b/c it's very unclear how condemnor boltguns actually work, and I don't want to spend my free day arguing.

However, it's probably good to make a public ruling on how this incendiary piece of wargear will work, in case anyone DOES believe that the condemnor is in "God mode" and wants to bring them....

The question is this:

A condemnor bolt hits a squad which has one or more psyker models in it (independent characters or otherwise).  What happens?

[Sir_Prometheus]

My instinct is to revert to the state of FAQ for the GK version-- the wound has to allocated to a psyker to count as having "hit". This makes it fairly useless for hitting ICs in inits, but still good for psyker MCs and the like. (Which are much bigger part of the game than they once were)

[Chase]

I don't know if this is the exact thing you dudes are talking about, but here's a ruling Sam made:

Quote:
Psi-shock: Any unit with the Psyker, Brotherhood of Psykers, or Psychic Pilot special rules that is hit by a weapon with this special rule suffers the Perils of the Warp in addition to any other damage.

Without diving too deep into it (as I will be the first to admit I am horribly bias against the surge of psychic 2++ rerollable deathstar units that seem to have popped up) there are two primary camps: those that assert units can never have special rules, and thus the boltgun does nothing (since a unit can technically never have the Psyker special rule, and thus the Psi-shock effect is never triggered); and those that believe the weapon actually was intended to do something, such as cause Perils on psykers hit by the boltgun.

Furthermore, the something that occurs needs clarification (if ruled that there actually is an effect). Specifically does "suffer the Perils of the Warp" mean each psyker is affected, or is just one Perils generated? Thus, does the Perils affect each psyker in a squad (causing 1 perils per psyker, enabling one shot to cause perils on multiple psykers) or does the shot cause one perils per hit (in which case is it randomly assigned to the unit, or does it affect the closest psyker?)

The entry is on pages 73 and 176 in the pdf I linked ya, but is wonderfully clear as mud.

 

Answer: 
Units can have special rules. They're listed in the unit entry under "Special Rules".

The Condemnor boltgun in the new Sisters codex causes a Perils on any psyker model hit by the attack (much like mindstrike missiles and the like only affect psykers under the template). So if the model against which the hit would be resolved has any of those special rules, it suffers a Perils immediately. At least until they come out with an errata, and change "hit" to "wounded".

[Sir_Prometheus]

Erhm, that didn't actually answer anything . 

Units can have special rules.  A unit can the Brotherhood of psyker rule, sure.  So there's no real questions what happens when it hits a unit of GK or horrors of tzeentch, for instance.  (thought the brotherhood rule clearly states only one model takes the perils).

It doesn't seem like a unit can have the psyker rule, though.  Or more specifically, it doesn't seem like a psyker IC inside a unit means the unit has psyker.  (and this is the most common case)  In fact, I'd very much argue it does not mean that.

So if you shoot at a tac squad containing a libby, or a screamer star containing a herald (which is what everything is excited about), I don't think it does anything. 

Again, which was all very clear when the GK got a FAQ for the exact same thing. 

[andalucien]

Units can have special rules. They're listed in the unit entry under "Special Rules".

The Condemnor boltgun in the new Sisters codex causes a Perils on any psyker model hit by the attack (much like mindstrike missiles and the like only affect psykers under the template). So if the model against which the hit would be resolved has any of those special rules, it suffers a Perils immediately. At least until they come out with an errata, and change "hit" to "wounded".

Sorry Chase, but that doesn't answer the question.  The missing link here is that when models are grouped together into a unit, hits aren't resolved against any particular model (or models) in that unit.  Only WOUNDS are allocated to specific models.  There's no way to tell which model in a unit was "hit" until you start resolving wounds.

So, let me phrase the question in the form of an example:

I've got a unit of 6 screamers (not psykers) joined by 2 heralds of tzeentch (psykers).  I have a squad of Sisters shooting at it with 2 condemnor boltguns and they both hit.   The closest 2 models to the Sisters squad are both Screamers, then the next closest are the 2 heralds.

What happens?
a. Both psykers take 2 perils of the warp each?
b. Each psyker takes 1 perils of the warp (even distribution of 2 perils for 2 hits).
c.  The closest psyker to the sisters squad takes 2 perils.
d. Take 2 perils, and randomly allocate them between the 2 heralds (it could be 1 and 1, or both perils could end up occurring on the same model).
e. No perils happens.

All of the above are what I would call "reasonable" interpretations... there are probably more possible implementations as well.  Just need to pick 1.

[andalucien]

Oh, and, the reason I'm asking about THIS in particular, is because obviously the difference in power between option "a" and option "e" above is pretty huge.  It's the difference between an entire unit full of psykers evaporating, and nothing happening to them at all.  Definitely the kind of thing you want both players to be on the same page about beforehand....

[Sir_Prometheus]

The official FAQ for the GK was basically "e" btw.  (not quite, you could still go through bolter wounds first, have the herald fail it's LoS!, and then it'd take a perils)

Anyway, Matt and I basically agree.  (the Matts agree, people) Sam's statement didn't really address the question...it's not whether units can posses USRs (they clearly can) it's whether having one-psyker in a non-psyker unit means the unit now has the "psyker" rule.  (No, I don't think it does)

[Chase]

Like I said... I don't know if this is what you guys were talking about.  I have to admit though... this sort of shit popping up literally every day is pretty annoying.

The guy who asked the question seemed fine with the answer though.  /shrug.

[Benjamin]

Like I said... I don't know if this is what you guys were talking about.  I have to admit though... this sort of shit popping up literally every day is pretty annoying.

Quite so. I'm just glad someone else feels the same.

[Grimwulfe]

For real welcome to 6th edition.. LOL

On the above example neither would take perils unless they were hit by the gun.  If the screamers absorb the shots no perils are needed.  If the heralds were in front and 1 failed its look out sir then he would take a perils. 

As for groups like brotherhood of psykers each gun would cause a perils so you would lose a random each guy every time they hit.  Chase's answer seems pretty clear to me.

[andalucien]

Grimwulfe, I'm sorry but I still don't understand... how do you tell which model in the unit was hit by the gun?  Are you saying that the closest model to the firing unit is always the one that is hit by all bullets from the firing unit?    Clearly that's not the case because after you allocate all the wounds, other models end up dying...    You mentioned look out sirs, but those only happen for WOUNDS, not for hits...

Like, I could hit a unit with 2 condemnor bolt rounds, and both could roll a 1 or a 2 on the to-wound roll, thus no wound is created.  In that case, no wounds are ever allocated to any model in the unit, and no look out sir could ever happen, etc.  But the gun still HIT the unit (it's just never been determined which model was hit)... and the Perils is supposed to happen on a HIT, not a wound.  See what I mean?

Not trying to be annoying guys... I just figure it's better to figure this out in advance, rather than at a table after someone's already shot his condemnors at some psyker unit....  I guess we can just hope no one shows up with condemnor boltguns.  If you would prefer to avoid clarifying rules beforehand, I will have to accept that and will stop making these kinds of posts.

[Erich]

A psyker unit is different than a psyker in a unit.

10 Guardians with Warlock are shot at by a unit with 2 Condemnor Bolts, both bolts hit, the guardians are in front of the Warlock and die to the bolts...Warlock does not take Perils.

If the Warlock was in front and was struck, then it would take Perils.

[Grimwulfe]

Grimwulfe, I'm sorry but I still don't understand... how do you tell which model in the unit was hit by the gun?  Are you saying that the closest model to the firing unit is always the one that is hit by all bullets from the firing unit?    Clearly that's not the case because after you allocate all the wounds, other models end up dying...    You mentioned look out sirs, but those only happen for WOUNDS, not for hits...

Yes exactly.  I agree with Erich here.  The front guy does take all the hits thus the main reason for wound allocation etc.  If the psyker is not in front he will not perils.  If it is a psyker unit then regardless who gets hit there will be a random perils.  Which also plays directly into the way wound allocation works.

IE having a TA in front of your unit who takes ALL wounds the same principle would apply for hits.