Space Wolf Chooser of the Slain Wargear and other rule ?'s

[jhobin]

I started this on my groups forum what do you guys think?

"I don't play Space Puppies, I found something interesting. The Chooser of the Slain Wargear says that Enemy infiltrators may not setup using their special rules against a space wolves army that includes a Rune Priest with a Chooser of the Slain unless they first roll a 4+ on a 1D6. (roll for each unit)

It's pretty clear that inflitrators try to use the infiltrate rule, if they fail the roll they deploy as normal. What happens if they try to outflank?

Basically outflank says units with scout or infiltrate may outflank. Would this mean that units with just the rule infiltrate would have to roll a 4+ to outflank because they are using the infiltrate rule to outflank?

Again the wonderful murky water of using a 3rd edition 'dex in 5th edition. I looked in GW's FAQ and the INAT FAQ and couldn't find an answer."


Playing Devil's advocate I can see both side's, but I would tend to agree that you can't outflank because the ability is being granted by the rule infiltrate, if you negate that ability, it should also negate any ability's granted by that ability.

Like the Vulcan/Sister's, and IG Shraken/Allies rules, I would check with tourney organzier first. This will all probably be made a mute point in a few month's when the rumored 'dex is released 

[Ian Mulligan]

I completely agree with you. If I were running an event, I would rule it to work on Outflank. Thanks for bringing this to everyone's attention. Yet another Space Wolf item has gotten better with age!

Sorry to veer off-topic here, but I don't understand why anyone would need to check with a TO regarding Vulkan/Sisters. The rule pretty clearly states "army" and, for the most part, has been accepted by the community.

[jhobin]

The best argument against allowing Sisters/Allied units not be able to use Vulkan's rule is the simplest, those units do not have the chapter tactic's rule. I forget who told me this but it was a good call I think it was Rich or Rick I apologize if it was some else 

I have no problem with it either way just that it is made clear by the person which way they are playing and in a tourney it is made clear before hand

[Ian Mulligan]

The best argument against allowing Sisters/Allied units not be able to use Vulkan's rule is the simplest, those units do not have the chapter tactic's rule. I forget who told me this but it was a good call I think it was Rich or Rick I apologize if it was some else 

Again, sorry to continue the off topic, but I see a lot of arguing over this rule and I don't understand why.

Here's the rule in question: "All units in your army lose the Combat Tactics special rule. Instead, all Thunder Hammers in your army count as Master-Crafted, and all flamers, heavy flamers, meltaguns and multimeltas count as twin-linked"


The first and second half of Vulkan's rule have nothing to do with each other. Any unit that has Combat Tactics loses it. Then, any and all Meltas, Flamers and Thunder Hammers are improved - not just weapons used by units that had Combat Tactics, and not just Marines, either. Unlike the other characters, no exchange is being made. Whether a unit had combat tactics or not, in this case, is irrelevant.

Clearly, this was intended to twin link Salamander vehicles, but as written, I fail to see the argument that allies do not benefit from it.

[Grand Master Steve]

I heard (not certain) that an errata may have been released that for rules like that only the one army benefits. Vulcan's rule has a stipulation that you must give up combat tactics to take it. If you dont have combat tactics then you can not get the ability.

[Ian Mulligan]

I heard (not certain) that an errata may have been released that for rules like that only the one army benefits.

I would love to see some errata here. Do you have a link or White Dwarf number?

Vulcan's rule has a stipulation that you must give up combat tactics to take it. If you dont have combat tactics then you can not get the ability.

No, it has no such requirement. As I said in a previous post, here's the rule in question: "All units in your army lose the Combat Tactics special rule. Instead, all Thunder Hammers in your army count as Master-Crafted, and all flamers, heavy flamers, meltaguns and multimeltas count as twin-linked"


I see nothing in that rule that one MUST have combat tactics to receive the benefit. The important part here is the second sentence. Note the "in your army". The benefit clearly extends beyond those who lost combat tactics.

[Moosifer]

I disagree that this works against outflanking.  You put down the wording for the peice of wargear as "The Chooser of the Slain Wargear says that Enemy infiltrators may not setup using their special rules against a space wolves army that includes a Rune Priest with a Chooser of the Slain unless they first roll a 4+ on a 1D6. (roll for each unit)"

This sentence reference to infiltrators in the deployment stage (setting up), not during gameplay itself.  If it was worded in a way to suggest units coming from reserve AND infiltrators, then Yes I would say it works against outflankers, but since it does not I think it refers only to the deployment stage.  Some precedence for this would be Master of the fleet/Astropath from the new edition, and the word in your ear rule from the 3rd edition DH/WH Dex

[jhobin]

What about;

Outflank in the little red book says "During deployment, players may declare that units with the 'scout' or 'infiltrate' special rules are attempting to outflank the enemy" (pg.94) The key word in this statement is "special rule".  "Enemy infiltrators may not setup using their special rules"

[Achillius]

I started this on my groups forum what do you guys think?

"I don't play Space Puppies, I found something interesting. The Chooser of the Slain Wargear says that Enemy infiltrators may not setup using their special rules against a space wolves army that includes a Rune Priest with a Chooser of the Slain unless they first roll a 4+ on a 1D6. (roll for each unit)

I believe this to be pretty cut and dried,  the key word is  "Set up" You don't set up during Outflank you simply move onto the table. This rule is for units trying to infiltrate during the deployment phase. Not I'd argue subsequent movement phases.

Either way, still a nice little feat.... "No you are not Sneaky.. go back to your lines and wait for us to come and thrash you"

[Achillius]

The best argument against allowing Sisters/Allied units not be able to use Vulkan's rule is the simplest, those units do not have the chapter tactic's rule. I forget who told me this but it was a good call I think it was Rich or Rick I apologize if it was some else 

Again, sorry to continue the off topic, but I see a lot of arguing over this rule and I don't understand why.

Here's the rule in question: "All units in your army lose the Combat Tactics special rule. Instead, all Thunder Hammers in your army count as Master-Crafted, and all flamers, heavy flamers, meltaguns and multimeltas count as twin-linked"


The first and second half of Vulkan's rule have nothing to do with each other. Any unit that has Combat Tactics loses it. Then, any and all Meltas, Flamers and Thunder Hammers are improved - not just weapons used by units that had Combat Tactics, and not just Marines, either. Unlike the other characters, no exchange is being made. Whether a unit had combat tactics or not, in this case, is irrelevant.

Clearly, this was intended to twin link Salamander vehicles, but as written, I fail to see the argument that allies do not benefit from it.

God we're back here, Really?
I agree, I'm sick and tired of people bringing this up. I mean how hard is it.

"Chapter Tactics" well that's clear
Give up Combat tactics, again, pretty clear,
If more than one you choose which set of combat tactics to use.

Again not rocket science. It's a Marine alternative ability to replace combat tactics. If you cannot give it up. You don't get it.

If however there was a T.O. who, in their own misguided way, allowed this, I would play it through.

Cheers,
A,

[ghost03]

God we're back here, Really?
I agree, I'm sick and tired of people bringing this up. I mean how hard is it.

"Chapter Tactics" well that's clear
Give up Combat tactics, again, pretty clear,
If more than one you choose which set of combat tactics to use.

Again not rocket science. It's a Marine alternative ability to replace combat tactics. If you cannot give it up. You don't get it.

Finally, someone with some intelligence, thank you. 

Also, on the Space Wolf nonsense. The item clearly references infiltrate from, what, 3rd edition when the book was written. There is obviously not going to be any notion that it would work on units coming in from tables sides via "outflank" or anything of that kind. And, outflank is given to units with scout as well. So how would the rule of the item apply to negate the effects of outflank for infiltrators when units with scout will proceed to outflank you...

[Lady GaGa]

The best argument against allowing Sisters/Allied units not be able to use Vulkan's rule is the simplest, those units do not have the chapter tactic's rule. I forget who told me this but it was a good call I think it was Rich or Rick I apologize if it was some else 

Again, sorry to continue the off topic, but I see a lot of arguing over this rule and I don't understand why.

Here's the rule in question: "All units in your army lose the Combat Tactics special rule. Instead, all Thunder Hammers in your army count as Master-Crafted, and all flamers, heavy flamers, meltaguns and multimeltas count as twin-linked"


The first and second half of Vulkan's rule have nothing to do with each other. Any unit that has Combat Tactics loses it. Then, any and all Meltas, Flamers and Thunder Hammers are improved - not just weapons used by units that had Combat Tactics, and not just Marines, either. Unlike the other characters, no exchange is being made. Whether a unit had combat tactics or not, in this case, is irrelevant.

Clearly, this was intended to twin link Salamander vehicles, but as written, I fail to see the argument that allies do not benefit from it.

"All units in your army lose the Combat Tactics special rule. Instead, all Thunder Hammers in your army count as Master-Crafted, and all flamers, heavy flamers, meltaguns and multimeltas count as twin-linked" 
The first part and second part don't have anything to do with eachother.  Really? The second sentence starts with INSTEAD clearly linking the two.  It clearly states that you must have the combat tactics special rule and when Vulcan comes into use he replaces that with the twin linked rule.  This is why you should read the entire entry clearly as if even a single word is over read could have total different meanings.

[the_trooper]

So Sally dreads cannot re roll their multimelta and flamers or did they give up chapter tactics when they were entombed?

[Ian Mulligan]

Let's remain civil. There really isn't any reason to resort to insulting intelligence.


@Achillius: I don't understand the hostility. Anyway, please read the rule a few times. Unlike the other characters, there is no replacement. Units lose combat tactics. Your army gains the benefit.

@Ghost03: Unfortunately, this is the sort of thing that arises with older codexes. Its pretty frustrating to deal with, especially with no FAQ to end speculation.

@Paws: Instead is not a qualifier. Instead of units having combat tactics, YOUR ARMY gains a benefit. At no point does it state that combat tactics is required.


I can completely understand how this doesn't feel right. I'm not a very big fan of how this works either. As I said earlier, this was clearly not the intention when the wrote the rule, but it does work. A lot of you seem to get upset when I talk about this in person and bring up that larger tournaments like Adepticon have released FAQs for their events addressing this issue in the Vulkan/Sisters favor. Regardless, here's a link: http://www.adepticon.org/files/INATFAQv2.2.pdf

[jhobin]

This is just a rules discussion,

There is always going to be someone who disagree's with the ruling of a grey area in the rules, and there are going to be people who are passionate about the ruling of a particular rule.

There are basically 2 ways to look at rule Rules as Written or Rules as intrepreted. Rules as Written in my opinion is the best way to look at it, for good or bad. This is because if you have other people from outside your playing group who come in you can say "pg blah blah references this rule." There are instance's like the chooser of the slain and Vulkan/Sisters were you can infer both sides of the argument from the rules and this is when Rules as Intrepreted comes in handy. It's good to have these cleared up, especially in tourney situation's because, if someone comes in and says "Rar Rar this is the way I play this Rule its the best" you can say these are our rule's this is how we play them here.

That being said I love playing devil's advocate as well as a couple other's I know  , but never take a ruling personally especially if your armies invovled.