40k version 2.0

[andalucien]

- 2+ saves can't be re-rolled.
- No challenge rule.
- No look out, sir rule.
- No buildings.
- Assault range is 3d6.
- Flyers / FMC's are at -1 to hit, not Snap Shots.  Skyfire removes the -1 to hit.

Whaddaya think?

[Sir_Prometheus]

-2 BS to hit Flyers.  -1 isn't enough, it really is supposed to be harder.  I just always disliked that it was even across the board for ORks, eldar, marines, humans.  Seemed weird. 

I like buildings, we just need more complete rules for them, GW totally half-assed it.    You need Look Out Sir! if you're going to have wound allocation work at all the way it does.

Yes, challenges are useless, let's ditch them.  Some armies have rules specifically FOR challenges, but that those rules are mostly useless too. 

Yes, 2+ saves of any kind that can be rerolled is stupid.  I'd be ok if we only limited it to invo saves, though. 

No, no, don't have assault ranges be 3d6, that'd be crazy.  But if you wanted assault to be more prevalent, maybe let you take overwatch casualties from the back? 

[Benjamin]

A unit may pass on its shooting phase in order to fire Overwatch at full BS in the following player's Assault Phase, but the unit must declare which enemy unit it is targeting.

No challenges. No random assault distances.

Template weapons decrease cover saves by 2, instead of ignoring them completely.

[Sir_Prometheus]

You can't have people declaring overwatch against PARTICULAR units a full tun ahead of time.  Might as well just skip it, then. 

[Ian Mulligan]

YEAH BEN JESUS WTF WAS THAT SUGGESTION ANYWAY

[Benjamin]

[Typhus]

Just go back to 2nd ed.

A unit can pass on its shooting phase to fire at a unit that moves within it's line of sight at, but at -1 BS.
Assaults start with 1d6, but add an additional +d6 and +1 to the result for every model in combat.
Terminators have a 3+ save on 2d6
Lascannons are -9 to your armor
Squats.

[robpro]

40k 2.0 - where we get rid of the rules I don't like and the points don't matter.

If you are homebrewing a new ruleset, I'd like some way to remove buffs armies put on their units during my turn. I get a chance to deny the with against maledictions, but there's nothing anyone can do aside from like space wolves or maybe tyranids if people are going to fortune/iron arm/perfect timing/etc their own guys. It'd be nice to have some kind of check, fantasy lets you throw dice to remove remains in play stuff, and the 40k buffs are pretty powerful (especially for armies that can never get access to them). I bet we can come up with something that makes sense.

[andalucien]

This is all just whistling in the wind anyway I guess, but I think the less new rules that need to be written, the better candidate it is for inclusion into 40k 2.0 ....   but... if we're going farther afield, here's how I think wound allocation should work.

Divide the incoming wounds into wound pools based on STR and AP and ignore-cover-ness, just as we do now.
The attacker chooses in which order the wound pools are handled.
For each wound pool,
Calculate the unit's MAJORITY save (based on both cover and armour and invul) against that wound pool (tie goes to the defender).   Then roll that many saves all at once. Remove that many wounds from the defending unit, based entirely on proximity. No look out sir.

I think this would cut down on the lenght of games by 20% or so.

Yes, no look out sir means that characters are in jeapordy.  Get over it.  This is war.  If you want to protect your character, make damn sure the enemy doesn't have a good angle on him, or hide him out of line of sight.

[andalucien]

and yes, this would also invalidate some tactics currently in use, like putting one guy in terminator armour at the front of a unit so he can tank ALL the saves.   But really I think that is kinda dumb anyway.  If you want your unit to be tough, you would need to make them at least HALF tough

[robpro]

Majority save is dumb. I like how wound allocation is handled now, it makes where you put your guys in the movement phase more important. If games "take too long," maybe it's just that people aren't allocating the right amount of time for the points level. I have gotten to turn 5 and beyond every game I've played where my opponent actually knew their own rules and had played more than one game prior.

[MM3791]

40k 2.0 - where we get rid of the rules I don't like and the points don't matter.

Lol, this is what first popped in my head when I read this thread.

If you are homebrewing a new ruleset, I'd like some way to remove buffs armies put on their units during my turn. I get a chance to deny the with against maledictions, but there's nothing anyone can do aside from like space wolves or maybe tyranids if people are going to fortune/iron arm/perfect timing/etc their own guys. It'd be nice to have some kind of check, fantasy lets you throw dice to remove remains in play stuff, and the 40k buffs are pretty powerful (especially for armies that can never get access to them). I bet we can come up with something that makes sense.

This is probably the most legitimate criticism I've seen and it makes sense. Buffs & debuffs can be just as powerful as direct damage spells. In Fantasy you can potentially dispel *anything/everything*, but for some reason in 40k you can only dispel damage spells. 

[andalucien]

Majority save is dumb. I like how wound allocation is handled now, it makes where you put your guys in the movement phase more important. If games "take too long," maybe it's just that people aren't allocating the right amount of time for the points level. I have gotten to turn 5 and beyond every game I've played where my opponent actually knew their own rules and had played more than one game prior.

Hmm, well, you're pretty fast, congrats

Meanwhile, England is lowering their tourneys to 1650 because no one could finish games at 1850.  And from what I've heard, very few games were finishing naturally at the NOVA either. 

Anyway, it's not just the thing about games finishing that makes me wish there was a faster way to do wound allocation.  It's that it's pretty tedious to sit through it.   
17 wounds on the pool... ok, my captain's in front... first one... look out sir... pass... what's this guy's save?  4+... ok, save, fail... second one... look out sir... fail...  ok, who's the next closest?  These are pretty close, let's measure... ok, it's him... save.. pass.. next one... look out sir... pass.. save... pass... next one... blah blah.   To me the game would be more fun without this.  Just my opinion

[Grimwulfe]

Or just roll all the lookout sirs first then save the amount of wounds the lord has then go into the others after that bam your done.

[robpro]

It only takes a long time if you make it. Let's look at your example.

Captain with 10 tactical marines (so 11 models in the unit)

17 wounds in the pool

Roll 17 lookout sirs, you get 5 1's.

The Captain now has to make 5 saves.

You roll the first 3 (he only has 3 wounds, if you roll 3 1's the rest go onto the unit)
You pass 2, he takes a wound.
You roll the next 2, he passes both.

You passed 12 lookout sirs and you have 10 tactical marines.
You roll 10 saves (10 wounds of guys, if you fail all 10 then the rest go back to the captain).
You pass 8, pull 2 guys
Roll remaining 2 saves

How long does that really take?