Author Topic: Grav weapons, discuss  (Read 8022 times)

Sam

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Re: Grav weapons, discuss
« Reply #45 on: September 12, 2013, 05:53:28 PM »
For mixed armour units with no clear majority (half and half), go with what would be most beneficial to the target, as per Toughness in the normal shooting rules. So if it's half 3+ saves and half 4+ saves, you'd need to roll a 4+ to wound.

Invulnerable saves have the same issue as cover saves. The only time they describe a vehicle making a save of any kind, it's in response to a glancing or penetrating hit. This is the first time they've tossed in an attack that doesn't produce glancing or penetrating hits, and the rules twist oddly as a result.

Regarding community-based changes to the rules: I don't really have a problem with that. It works fine for Fantasy, but the Fantasy community has people who've gone to the trouble of figuring out a version of the game that works, and making it widely accepted as a standard. Someone is free to do that for 40k as well; it's just not going to be me. I'm not a tournament player, and I barely have time enough to check army lists before tournaments, let alone rework the rules. There's also the issue of visiting players. While one particular rules change may be favored by our usual 40k crowd, our tournaments have occasionally drawn people from other states (and even countries). In general, I don't want someone to drive 12 hours to get here only discover their army nullified by a house rule when they arrive.

All of that's a whole other issue, and goes way beyond the scope of this thread. Troy, if you want to start up a new thread to discuss the creation of a set of rules fixes (along the lines of the ETC guidelines for Fantasy), go for it. It'd be interesting to see what the community comes up with. If it works out and makes the game more balanced all around, we could see about implementing new rules in a tournament setting. Until then, the only way I feel I can be fair is to work with what GW gives me. Thanks, everyone, for taking an interest and staying on the lookout for issues. Better to see this stuff now than to be blindsided at a tournament.

Sir_Prometheus

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Re: Grav weapons, discuss
« Reply #46 on: September 12, 2013, 06:38:01 PM »
Let's just ask the question in and of itself, "what is a unit's majority armour save"?  If the answer is worked out similarly to how you work out "what's the majority toughness?", you would take the BEST save in case of a tie.

Of course, that actually makes it easier for grav-weapons to wound the unit, but that's just because grav weapons are all inverted from normal logic and crazy like that.   It would be like if there was a weapon that wounded on 7 minus majority toughness.

Again, it comes down to how you define the rule (as a precedent).

Was it:

1) Default best (highest, most)

2) Default to what was best for the defense?  I.e. in case of tie, we go to the defender.

I suspect that it was the later

Sir_Prometheus

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Re: Grav weapons, discuss
« Reply #47 on: September 12, 2013, 06:50:00 PM »
Invulnerable saves have the same issue as cover saves. The only time they describe a vehicle making a save of any kind, it's in response to a glancing or penetrating hit. This is the first time they've tossed in an attack that doesn't produce glancing or penetrating hits, and the rules twist oddly as a result.

Well, it's not really actually.  And there's even one "attack" objuration mechanicum, that isn't an attack proper, it's a malediction, and it causes glances and pens, yet you don't get cover saves against.

I kinda wish you'd address the logic of an effect occurring at the "hit" stage, such as entropic strike, mindstrike, marker lights, grounding tests, versus things that occur at the "damage" stage, such as haywire, concussive, Gauss weaponry, and I think, this. 

There's a fairly clear precedent that things that occur on hit, such rad grenades, or even JOTWW you don't get saves on, very things that occur on dmg, like psychic shriek, you do (even if it ignores cover, you get any invo saves)

Moreover can I point out that Grav weapons certainly are causing damage, in the traditional way, even though they're not specifically causing pens and glances, while entropic strike actually does not?  Basically I think you're looking at this from the wrong end and thus using the wrong set of precedents.

If you need even more backup, may I point out that GW uses several different phrases to refer to "taking a wound" as well as several for "removed as a casualty".  They just don't use keywords heavy enough to really on "glances or penetration hits" language. 

Chase

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Re: Grav weapons, discuss
« Reply #48 on: September 12, 2013, 07:13:37 PM »
Guys, Sam doesn't frequent the message boards and will likely not see any / a lot of this.  Your best bet might be PMing him or something.  It might bounce to his email

I'd rather not have to alert him to people's questions multiple times a day.
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andalucien

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Re: Grav weapons, discuss
« Reply #49 on: September 12, 2013, 09:46:10 PM »
I'd personally almost rather just consider the case closed until GW issues an FAQ or we adopt another FAQ that addresses it.  Any ruling Sam made was going to be somewhat arbitrary, and accomplishes the main purpose of having interested individuals like ourselves know how it's going to be played.
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Benjamin

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Re: Grav weapons, discuss
« Reply #50 on: September 12, 2013, 10:41:28 PM »
"But this is a dumb rule and it doesn't make sense!"

The phrase I've uttered most over the past year.

Grimwulfe

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Re: Grav weapons, discuss
« Reply #51 on: September 13, 2013, 08:29:47 AM »
I agree with Andilucien Sam has ruled on it and there fore we know how to play it.  Is it broken? Not our call really.  In a sense I agree with Sam that for the time being we have to follow what GW says and as a TO he has set the rules the way he and ohers have interpited them. Now we know and can compensate for the tournies we all love to attend.

Thank you Sam for taking the time to update us on how these will work.

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Erich

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Re: Grav weapons, discuss
« Reply #52 on: September 13, 2013, 09:02:59 AM »
Vehicles and cover saves. What's up with that? I know, right? This is pretty much the scarab swarm conga line all over again: they're probably going to FAQ it in a month, but right now, the rules are clear. And the rules were written under the assumption that vehicles only ever suffer glancing or penetrating hits, and specify that cover saves are only taken to negate glancing or penetrating hits. Since grav weapons don't inflict either, the cover save rule ridiculously does not apply. Hide your kids, hide your wave serpents; they're grav-ing everybody out here.

I don't know what is worse, GW's rule writing, or how most players follow RAW over the spirit of the rules (and the fact that GW does not address this). Of course vehicles get a cover save from a grav-weapon...any other, non-vehicle would so why not a vehicle vs. a grav weapon?

However, RAW wins over common sense in games, at least until a FAQ fixes the issue.

robpro

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Re: Grav weapons, discuss
« Reply #53 on: September 15, 2013, 11:55:51 AM »
Quick question, not sure if it's been covered already -

If I bring a Chaos Space Marines Daemon Prince and don't buy him power armor, is he immune to grav guns?

treant1688

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Re: Grav weapons, discuss
« Reply #54 on: September 15, 2013, 12:09:57 PM »
to be honest the rule is simple the die 6 roll is used in place of the armor pen roll, the cover save is taken after the clance or pen takes place and the weapon does not have the ignore cover USR so yes they get a cover save

PhoenixFire

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Re: Grav weapons, discuss
« Reply #55 on: September 15, 2013, 12:58:53 PM »
Quick question, not sure if it's been covered already -

If I bring a Chaos Space Marines Daemon Prince and don't buy him power armor, is he immune to grav guns?

no, he would be wounded on a 6+

Benjamin

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Re: Grav weapons, discuss
« Reply #56 on: September 15, 2013, 10:38:08 PM »
to be honest the rule is simple the die 6 roll is used in place of the armor pen roll, the cover save is taken after the clance or pen takes place and the weapon does not have the ignore cover USR so yes they get a cover save
Too tired to copy and/or be polite. You're wrong. Page 75.

Sir_Prometheus

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Re: Grav weapons, discuss
« Reply #57 on: September 16, 2013, 06:29:08 PM »
to be honest the rule is simple the die 6 roll is used in place of the armor pen roll, the cover save is taken after the clance or pen takes place and the weapon does not have the ignore cover USR so yes they get a cover save
Too tired to copy and/or be polite. You're wrong. Page 75.

Then you probably shouldn't have said anything? 

Besides which, I think he is pretty correct.  The internet, at large, seems to agree with him also.

See all that reasoning I made on this being an "on dmg" effect rather than an "on hit" effect, it's just a different kind of dmg. 

Benjamin

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Re: Grav weapons, discuss
« Reply #58 on: September 16, 2013, 06:49:27 PM »
Besides which, I think he is pretty correct.
He's either correct or he's not. And he's not. The grav hit causes neither a glancing nor penetrating result, ergo no save is allowed.

shwnlyns

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Re: Grav weapons, discuss
« Reply #59 on: September 16, 2013, 10:46:44 PM »
Besides which, I think he is pretty correct.
He's either correct or he's not. And he's not. The grav hit causes neither a glancing nor penetrating result, ergo no save is allowed.

gotta agree with Ben here, whether this is was GW intended or not, it is how the rule is written.