Grav weapons, discuss

[PhoenixFire]

So our new toys to play with, they seem like a no brainer to put in tac, sternguard, and bike squads since they will do a much better job killing MCs than the old standby plasma guns and for the same price point.

but it seems some rules conundrums are already coming up (GW not making something clear? shocking)

read below

You know you can't resist a good old-fashioned rules conundrum.  Its like trying to not look at someone getting a ticket on the roadside. A new Marine codex means a brand new conundrum!



the Lounge's Stone Edwards writes:

"Hey everyone. Been seeing a lot of people saying that vehicles don't get cover saves vs grav weapons since it technically doesn't cause a pen/glance result. Also does this mean they wouldn't get invul saves either?"

We also get this bonus conundrum:

"...since it causes an immobilized result if you roll 2 6s does that cause 3 hps? Two for each 6 and then another for an additional immobilized result."

For the record, the Grav Weapon's exact text reads:

"When resolving a hit against a vehicle, roll a D6 for each hit instead of rolling for armour penetration as normal.  On a 1-5 nothing happens, but on a 6, the target suffers an Immobilized result and loses a single Hull Point."

so what is everyones thoughts on utilizing them in game and how is everyone interpreting these rules conundrums?

[Moosifer]

This is silly.  You do not lose two hull points for one hit, you lose one HP.

[Grimwulfe]

I think this answer sums it up the best

Jawaballs> ronin_cse
•2 hours ago△▽
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I would agree with you, IF this weapon used the vehicle damage table as normal. But it does not. It says "instead of rolling for armor penetration as normal."

And further, to credit DoctorBored with this rules quote:

Q: If a vehicle suffers the effects of a Crew Shaken, Crew
Stunned, Weapon Destroyed or Immobilised result from the
Vehicle Damage table, does this automatically mean that it loses
a Hull Point? (p74)

A: No, unless it specifically suffers a Glancing or Penetrating
hit, or some other effect that specifies that a Hull Point is
lost.

Immobilized results do NOT auto cause hull points in this case because it is not actually a pen or glance. And unlike in 5th edition, they do not shift damage over to weapon destroyed etc. The extra immobilized just goes away. The end result of the scenario I described is an immobilized tank minus 2 hull points.

[andalucien]

Hmm, I'm not sure about that Grimwulfe... I think it's an immobilized vehicle minus THREE hull points.  It no longer "rolls" over to weapon destroyed, but it does roll over to an addiitonal hull point.

From the description for Immobilized from the BRB:

"
Any Immobilised results suffered by an already Immobilised vehicle, or a Flyer with Locked Velocity (see page 81) instead remove an additional Hull Point.
"

I would interpret this to mean that the first hit that causes an immobilized result doesn't automatically cause an additional hull point, but the second one does (since the vehicle is already immobilized and is being re-immobilized).

[Grimwulfe]

It says unlike 5th where it rolled over. 

Either way

We should have Sam look at it and give his official position sice arguing about any of this is a mute point.  Sam's word is law.

[andalucien]

I agree.  I'm just amazed that GW can continue to publish rules with obvious unsanswered questions like this attached to them.  It makes it seem like they don't involve very many people at all in their game development process.  Which seems dumb. 

[Moosifer]

I think this answer sums it up the best

Jawaballs> ronin_cse
•2 hours ago△▽
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⚑





I would agree with you, IF this weapon used the vehicle damage table as normal. But it does not. It says "instead of rolling for armor penetration as normal."

And further, to credit DoctorBored with this rules quote:

Q: If a vehicle suffers the effects of a Crew Shaken, Crew
Stunned, Weapon Destroyed or Immobilised result from the
Vehicle Damage table, does this automatically mean that it loses
a Hull Point? (p74)

A: No, unless it specifically suffers a Glancing or Penetrating
hit, or some other effect that specifies that a Hull Point is
lost.

Hey look something in the FAQ that answers our questions!  HURRAY!

[andalucien]

That FAQ addresses whether 2 Hull points are lost on the first hit, but not on the second hit.  The situations are different;  on the first hit, people argue that 2 hull points are lost because e.g. when associated with a penatrating hit, an "immobilized" result is associated with at least 1 hull point loss (or 2 if the vehicle is already immobilized).  The FAQ you posted smacks that down.  On the other hand, the SECOND grav gun hit would cause a 2nd hull point loss for a totally different reason - the Immobilized result itself ROLLS OVER to an extra hull point loss if the vehicle already happens to be immobilized.

[Sir_Prometheus]

I think it's pretty clear that Grav weapons only cause one hull point on the first hit.

Second hit would be two hull points, though, as you're immobilizing something that's already immobilized.

On the general subject of Grav weapons, they seem good on bikes, but not generically more useful than plasma on infantry. 

[andalucien]

Grav CANNONS /w/ grav amps on the other hand, holeeee crap.

A unit of 3 centurions firing grav cannons... 15 shots.. 10 hits...   that will nearly always kill a wraithknight or a riptide or a dreadknight.  And vs vehicles... 10 hits, looking for sixes with a re-roll... that will average about 5 hull points (i.e. any vehicle should die).

[Chase]

How do you all feel about the cover save thing?

[Grimwulfe]

Range is the big kicker here.  Arent the grav cannons only 24" range?

[Moosifer]

It is still a shooting attack that just uses a different table than the vehicle damage table.  Cover saves most definitely

[andalucien]

By RAW, it's pretty clear that vehicles don't get a cover save (or an invul save) since it's not inflicting a glancing or penetrating hit.  Just like they don't get invul saves from Scarab hits.

Yeah, only 24" inch range is a limiting factor, but at least they have Slow and Purposeful right?   You park the unit in the middle of the board, and if the opponent wants to stay out of range, they're basically hiding in a corner.  At least it's making them change their battle plan.

[Grimwulfe]

I get the no cover save but why no Invuln?  That part doesnt make sense