Space Marines!

[Sir_Prometheus]

So can anyone tell me if Black Templar are worth playing? I've got some conversion ideas from pics online on to make a bad ass looking BT army, but it looks like from the speculation topic that ultras are going to be the best chapter to use, especially if you plan to run sternguard.

The black templar chapter tactics are not great (White scars and Imperial fists seem clearly the best) but on the other hand crusader squads seem to be in every way a better version tac squads.

Never mind that you can bulk them out with cheap scouts (though that's good too), but they can get both a heavy and special in 5 men (so like, las/plas) they can get two guys with special CC weapons (sergeant and another, so you can also have a "hidden" powerfist) and you can also give them all CCW/pistol, something you can usually only do with assault squads (which are not troops). So they're pretty awesome and in every way better than normal tac squads. 

Main downside to crusaders over tac squads is you can't get the various re-rolls 1's and bolter shots that Fists and Ultras get. 

[Sir_Prometheus]

Flipped through the codex, kind of irked that some of the exact some units are cheaper in the new book than in C:DA book.

Yup, for at least the second (third?) time, the DA codex seems to be the test run for regular marines.  White scar troop bikes in particular (cuz you're gonna do that) seem in every way superior to ravenwing. (oh, look, Khan even gives them scout). 

It's a little lame. 

[andalucien]

Iron hands seem pretty amazing to me also, if you presume that a vehicle-heavy list is capable of ever being good, getting free It Will Not Die on ALL VEHICLES (#E@$#@$) has to be freaking amazing.

Even the infantry ability (FNP 6+) seems good.  If you start off with the assumption that the units are costed properly just based on their rulebook entries, making them all 17% more durable for no extra cost would seem to be a win.

This is the huge difference between these chapter tactics and, e.g. the Marks from the CSM book.  These are FREE free free free FREE for your whole army.

[Sir_Prometheus]

Yup, pretty clearly makes CSM even worse by comparison, too.  ATSKNF is pretty clearly worth a lot more than 1 pt per model (it's pretty much the best USR in the game).  Nevermind chapter tactics. 

[andalucien]

Yep, oh geez...  the poor CSM's.... 
I think CSM should cost at 10 pts each in today's inflated world. 

[Typhus]

Scuttlebutt has God Specific supplements coming, so I'm not that worried.

[andalucien]

I don't know how that could address the issues with the actual Chaos Space Marines.

I actually really love the codex, it's all I've been playing lately and probably will remain so until Tyranids come out.  But my elevator starts on the Cultist floor and goes straight up to Plague Marines without stopping at CSM.  Know what I mean?

[Sir_Prometheus]

Scuttlebutt has God Specific supplements coming, so I'm not that worried.

These are supplements are unlikely to adjust basic costs, and basic costs seem to be the issue. 

I don't know how that could address the issues with the actual Chaos Space Marines.

I actually really love the codex, it's all I've been playing lately and probably will remain so until Tyranids come out.  But my elevator starts on the Cultist floor and goes straight up to Plague Marines without stopping at CSM.  Know what I mean?

yeah...I don't understand why plague marines are so awesome.  They have ALWAYS been awesome, as far as I can tell.  Either someone has a real hardon for nurgle, or they just have no idea how to cost increased toughness and FNP. 

[andalucien]

I love em.  It's hard for a 30+ point power armour model to be good, but they somehow manage to do it.

-T5
-FNP
-Fearless
-Defensive grenades
-Extra attack
-Poison weapons
-Lots of Plasma

Those all add up to a unit that never fails to make me happy...

[PhoenixFire]

i haven't really decided which way i want to go as to chapter tactics...

White scars: seem like a no brainer if you want to run bikes or vehicles AND they've got a supplement coming out in the next few weeks which will likely make them stronger

Ultramarines: While i'm not a fan of their "one use only" chapter tactics i'm forced to take them if i want to play with Tigurius (the only way to get divination and awesome in general) and Telion

Imperial Fists: strong tactics, a shame it doesn't apply to sternguard special ammo since it's Kantors chapter tactics

Black Templars: don't know enough about BT to speak intelligently so i wont

Iron Hands: pretty solid, maybe people will start taking dreadnoughts again?

Salamanders: meh

Raven Guard: meh, i guess it's decent if you're running vanguard squads but i don't think i've ever seen a vanguard heavy army list

[Chase]

Pick one and ally in the other?

[andalucien]

Actually, (and this may have been what Typhus was getting at) there would be a really easy way for GW to mostly fix CSM's using the cult expansions.  I just doubt they'll actually do it.

If you use this expansion, all your units get mark of ____ for free.   That fits the fluff to a T and would make CSM's seem reasonable and other units really good, but not OP.  I think all of the marks except Nurgle would still be slightly overcosted, but whatareyougonnado.

[Sir_Prometheus]

Problem is the different marks are no where near equivalent worth.

[shwnlyns]

Ok, a few more questions about Black Templar.

1. can BT take tac squads and scout squads or is it crusader squad only, meaning no sniper rifle scouts.
2. can a close combat oriented BT army be at all competitive, I'm thinking Vanguard if they can still charge the turn they deep strike and 2 power weapons in each crusader squad.
3. is adding neophytes to a crusader squad a good idea, seems to me it makes the squad no longer fit in a transport that's not a land raider and it is no stuck running across the battlefield.

Thank in advance for responses, I'd really like to put together a BT army I can have fun with and not get blown off the table in a few turns and appreciate all the help I can get in doing so.

[Loranus]

I am going to be running Salamanders . I have been tossing around some crazy ideas in my head that I think will work out well for them.

I think I am on my 5th read through of the rules section by now. It is one of the most concise and clear codexes i have read with relatively small stuff I think may need to be FAQed.

Ok, a few more questions about Black Templar.

1. can BT take tac squads and scout squads or is it crusader squad only, meaning no sniper rifle scouts.
2. can a close combat oriented BT army be at all competitive, I'm thinking Vanguard if they can still charge the turn they deep strike and 2 power weapons in each crusader squad.
3. is adding neophytes to a crusader squad a good idea, seems to me it makes the squad no longer fit in a transport that's not a land raider and it is no stuck running across the battlefield.

Thank in advance for responses, I'd really like to put together a BT army I can have fun with and not get blown off the table in a few turns and appreciate all the help I can get in doing so.

1. Yes you can take Tac and Scout squads.
2. Vanguard can no longer Charge after they deep strike. I would like to say yes despite the mass opinion that assault is dead.
3. Well it depends on your strategy. I would say if you want everything in Transports I wouldn't do it.