Tau codex interpretation

[PhoenixFire]

I really don't think so.  People use the old tiny-based avatar all the time.  Carnifex converted tervigons, too.

It's not like it's a modeling for advantage thing, it's a lazy thing.  Just because GW decided they wanted to sell bigger, more expensive models does not mean I have to go crazy trying to rebase stuff. 

Actually, now that I think about, I think I actually stuffed my FW broadside on a smaller (termie) sized scenic base.  So, they're all on the same base.  But I'm not going to change them out for bigger ones. 

When I do scenic bases for my FW Crisis suits maybe I'll put them on a smaller base -- IF they fit. 

This all has very little game effect, anyway.  Base size for a Broadside essentially never matters, and it matters for a crisis suit only rarely.

I think it's understandable that players with the "old as of last week" broadsides don't immediately rush out to buy or trade for 60mm bases.

That being said there is going to be a time when it gets enforced by tournaments at Battlegrounds and elsewhere. You can't use the "that's the base it came with" argument forever because using that logic i could go buy old terminators on Ebay with 25mm bases and be "that guy".

There is clearly precedent for this because in all my time playing 40k I've never seen a terminator on a 25mm base.

is it a major deal? No, because at most a Tau player is going to have 3 broadsides (and even that is unlikely with the str 8 nerf) but it's the principle that the rules should be adhered to. Sooner or later somebody is going to assault one during a tournament and be just short of getting in because they are not on the legal base.

[Benjamin]

Sam has to answer this question.

[Chase]

It is required that people have the appropriate bases on their models.  Obviously a certain, undefined period of time will be allowed for people to convert their models over.  I'm not going to beat people up about it any time soon, but it is expected.

I can't tell you how many times I've seen the old Terminators, small base and all, glued right on to a 40mm base.

Tervigons are an interesting example of "what base is this supposed to be on" type stuff.  The codex was around for a long time before the model was put out.  No one had any idea how big the model was supposed to be.  I must have been asked about which base to put it on 100 times.  At the time I think the only oval base was the Trygon, so I told people to put it on Carnifex / Dreadnought bases.

I can't recall seeing a Tervigon on a 60mm base.  Last time must have been a while ago.

Now, Broadsides are a lot more popular than just about any other model I can think of that's had the size of its base changed outside of Terminators (a million years ago).  I'm not expecting or demanding that people rip their models off of old bases and re-base them right away, but it will be expected that your models are based appropriately into the future.  It's sort of unfortunate because I think the old Broadside will look sort of goofy and a 60mm base, but we've gotta have the correct bases on our models, people.

I don't see a reasonable alternative here.

[andalucien]

OK, I kind of hate to ask this question because I'm a little afraid of the answer...

It's related...

What if you are playing a greater daemon, and you have a very large alternate model for it (e.g. the Forgeworld greater daemon)...  Can you put it on a LARGER base? 

I am planning on running 1 of each greater daemon at the next "casual" 2000pt tourney, and all 4 are alternate models that crank up the cool factor a bit over the lackluster GW normal greater daemons.  They all look OK on 60mm bases except for the Great Unclean One (which is really a Hellpit Abomination in keeping with my Nurgle=rats thing).    It looks quite a bit better on the Trygon base. 

What do ya think?   I can sort of have him teetering on the wee base if necessary, but it doesn't look as good.   But, if for the sake of consistency a 60mm base is required, I can make it work somehow.

[Vincent]

Well since you measure from base edge it would not give you an advantage. If anything It'd give you a disadvantage since it'd give everyone assaulting you more base. As for shooting it could make a difference for the shooter and being able to hit you easier when normally they'd just be short.

[Sir_Prometheus]

Sam has to answer this question.

Why?  What's your problem?!?

I'm actually getting pretty riled about this. Models are based on the base they are supplied with.  That is the ffing rule, it's right there on pg. 3 of the main rule book.  I am under no obligation, in any way, to rebase old models.

I mean, really, this is firmly, completely settled as a rule.  It's in the main rule book, and it's always been that way, every edition I've played, it's not the first time it's come up.  Yes, those old terminators on little bases are legal too, if you want an extreme case, but I'm not sure why that's any more noteworthy that the old avatars, which you still see all the time. 

It's all the the more aggravating because this is completely inconsequential on the models we're talking about.  The only thing that smaller broadside bases do is make it slightly easier for the enemy to actually catch two under a plasma cannon blast.  No, it doesn't affect assault ranges at all, the front edge of the thing is going to be where it's going to be.

I have no idea what you are all so excited about, but that's not what the rules say, it's not how it's always been played, and it doesn't matter anyway. 

I'm not even sure I want to take Broadsides, I don't much like their new rules, but I'm not going to go rebasing models that I actually spent time giving scenic bases, when I have a lot half-painted or only primed models that need attention.  And the rules say I don't have to. 

[Chase]

Matt your post is sort of confusing to me.

I feel like we've always taken the following approach.  I'm relatively certain this has come up a few times in the past too.  From INAT (which governed most of our 5e events)

RB.03B.01 – Q: In the odd case where models come
supplied with multiple differently sized bases, are
players allowed to choose which base to mount them
on?
A: Players must, to the best of their ability, mount models on
the proper base size as dictated by the majority of Games
Workshop hobby materials [clarification]. When in doubt,
contact the tournament organizer for a ruling on a particular
model.


That's always been our stance and it will be into the future.  Am I going to DQ someone for showing up with models on old bases?  Of course not.  Am I going to mention it to them if they come to events all the time and everyone else is basing that model on it's "standard" base?  Yup.

The answer INAT gives here is absolutely fantastic.  It allows for a very nice transition period between old and new as the "majority" shifts.  I know it's not answering the specific question in the most specific way, but what we've got here is right on.


Also, I read "Models are based on the base they ARE supplied with" differently than I read "Models are based on the base they WERE supplied with." 

[Chase]

What do ya think?   I can sort of have him teetering on the wee base if necessary, but it doesn't look as good.   But, if for the sake of consistency a 60mm base is required, I can make it work somehow.

I think I would always prefer to see models and counts as models on the appropriate base when it comes to tournaments where relatively large prizes are on the line.

I could write a giant response going into how and why I think this is a unique situation, but it's 425am and it's past my bed time.

Am I going to freak out because one model is on a bigger base so that it looks better?  No.  If it's at all possible to have a stand in model (or at least an appropriate base) on hand, please do so.


I'm not out to tell people how they can build their models, but someone has got to hold players accountable.  I put these events together, so that falls on me.  Yay.... 

We don't need perfectly weighted and balanced Stormravens rocking 40mm bases because some guy thinks it looks awesome.  I also can't have people "modeling for advantage" regardless if it's intentional or not, debatable or not, etc. etc.

A larger base is almost always WORSE than the smaller base... unless someone is dropping a template on your stuff (and only in some cases there too).  In some cases the entire issue will be a judgement call.  I'm okay with that.


If you're planning to base something on a base other than what it's intended to sit on, let me know.  Chances are I'm going to ask why.  Chances are you're going to say "because it looks cool." Chances are I'll respond with "Okay, please have a stand in model ready or at least the appropriate sized base in case something comes up."

Remember folks:  When in doubt, contact the tournament organizer for a ruling on a particular model. 

[Benjamin]

Sam has to answer this question.

Why?

Because Sam is the rules guy, and this is a rules question. When I wrote that, I did not expect Chase to take up the decision.

I'll try to be less excited in the future.

[Sir_Prometheus]

RB.03B.01 – Q: In the odd case where models come
supplied with multiple differently sized bases, ....

They weren't supplied with multiple sized bases.  They were supplied one size of base. 

You can ALWAYS use models on the base they were supplied with, that's an actual rule, and always has been.  If that INAT FAQ means what you're saying it does, and I'm not sure it does (was there maybe a case where models actually came with several different bases?), then it's not a clarification, it's a re-write.  I've never seen a tournament disallow old models or bases. 

I tell you again, this is going to make no ffing difference in game.  And yes, they would (except for the Forge World model) look stupid on bigger bases.  I have no intention of resizing the bases.  If someone wants to bring in paper cut outs of large bases cuz they think it makes such a big difference, they can go nuts. 

[Grimwulfe]

I tell you again, this is going to make no ffing difference in game.  And yes, they would (except for the Forge World model) look stupid on bigger bases.  I have no intention of resizing the bases.  If someone wants to bring in paper cut outs of large bases cuz they think it makes such a big difference, they can go nuts.

This is why you have people at tournies who are starting to refuse to play you.  It appears that any chance you get you want to bend the rules to your liking.  Regardless of what they came with when you bought the model if the new models have changed the standard size base then you have to use that new standard size.

Case in point - I have been playing 40k for 20+ years EVERY one of my terminators werre bought with 28mm bases.  Now as we know all TA are now sold with 40mm and that is the standard.  You really going to tell me you believe that I should still be able to use my terminators on 28mm bases just because thats what I bought them with 15 years ago?

Come on man lets have some common sense here.

[keithb]

RB.03B.01 – Q: In the odd case where models come
supplied with multiple differently sized bases, ....

They weren't supplied with multiple sized bases.  They were supplied one size of base. 

And they are supplied with one size base now.  I stopped using my tervigons on 60mm bases after the new ones came out.  I used them for ONE event after the new models came out, and bought new ones after that.

Matt, basically every single argument comes down to you loudly proclaiming that you are an asshole and that you are going to do things your way.

Why not just post "Hey, I am not going to have the time to rebase my Broadsides before the next event, is that cool".  Instead of being all like "DIS IZ TEH WAY MY BROADSIDES WILL BE FOREVAZ AND ALL TIMES!!!!ONE1"

I have had issues with base sizes before at templecon, and it does affect the game.  Just because your tiny mind can't conceive of a way where it will, doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

You get way too wound up over this shit matt, next time you find yourself about to make a righteous post involving miniature wargaming, take a 10-15 minute break, visit your favorite porn site, "Relax", then come back an post.  I think you'll find a lot less hostility when you bring none yourself.

[the_trooper]

Yeah, I remember back in 4th edition that there was some dude who played in the Boston area who played with plague marines on 40mm and terminators on 60mm. His rhinos were land raider size. He very much so played up the rules lawyer angle (in every negative connotation). I vowed to never play him since he just annoyed me so damn much. He played up the artistic angle even though it looked terrible and he was really just doing it to gain the advantage.

Different base sizes means advantages that can be played.  Bigger base sizes means you can plan for better assaults out of vehicles (sometimes) and more protection from blast weapons. Small base sizes means hiding in terrain easier and more and better deep striking results.

There are clear advantages if you plan for them. Sticking with the accepted base size is a gesture of goodwill at the very least to your fellow gamers.

[Sir_Prometheus]

  It appears that any chance you get you want to bend the rules to your liking. 

It's not bending the rules.  It's what the rule is, seriously. 

Case in point - I have been playing 40k for 20+ years EVERY one of my terminators werre bought with 28mm bases.  Now as we know all TA are now sold with 40mm and that is the standard.  You really going to tell me you believe that I should still be able to use my terminators on 28mm bases just because thats what I bought them with 15 years ago?

Come on man lets have some common sense here.

The 28 mm bases are legal.  Truth is, the larger bases are an advantage, especially for an assault unit.  It means you take less damage from blasta, and it means you can cover more territory. 

I stopped using my tervigons on 60mm bases after the new ones came out.

It's nice that you did that, but it wasn't required.  And, like the terminators, I'll argue that it was mostly to your advantage to do so. 

Just because your tiny mind can't conceive of a way where it will.

Dude, stuff it. 

Yeah, I remember back in 4th edition that there was some dude who played in the Boston area who played with plague marines on 40mm and terminators on 60mm. His rhinos were land raider size.

That's a completely different matter though, that's modeling for advantage.  By comparison, the guy who scratch built his own battlewagon (or tervigon) and it isn't the exact same size as the new model shouldn't have to redo it, and in fact doesn't. 

[Grimwulfe]

The 28 mm bases are legal.  Truth is, the larger bases are an advantage, especially for an assault unit.  It means you take less damage from blasta, and it means you can cover more territory.

I disagree with this man.  The standard base for all TA is 40mm just because I bought a model 15 years again does not and will not make putting a TA on a 28mm legal.