List Building Advice for 40k (6th ED.)

[Loranus]

With 6th edition being around for about half a year and a good grasp on the rules for some of us. I think the next Issue I want to tackle is generating better Army Lists for this edition for myself and others.

Trying to read over articles about list building most are old and set in 5th edition I have been able to pull some good points out of them but would love some more input from the community.

What I  understand is the following topics should be considered when building a list.

How will I win the game? Building your army around Victory Conditions

The type of units in your army? Scoring, Damage Dealing, and Support units

And the Overall Strategy of your army list? Shooting, Assault, Hybrid.

Should I be taking allies? With 6th edition and allies should you be adding them and how to tell which ones to add to your army.

What I hope this thread will discuss is the idea of how to differentiate and improve an army list based on these and other informative topics.

Difference in opinions is welcome but please keep it to a mature discussion. I hope for this thread to be an easy read without having to go through 5-20 posts about the same topic between 2 people.

Keep it general related if possible. Focusing on 1 type of army is not the purpose of this thread.

Long posts breaking each topic down is welcomed as seeing different views will help people understand each topic easier.

[PhoenixFire]

Right when 6th edition was about to hit i switched to IG which has been pretty good to me, and it's great for certain aspects of 6th edition (cheap plentiful infantry and lots of guns).

So in answer to one of your questions... take allies. They fill in the HOLES in your codex which whatever your codex may be even if it just came out it has holes.

My IG have been great with the exception the troops are squishy and hard to hold objectives with and my "assaults" look like a one sided high school girl fight with me flailing my arms wildly and trying to pull out my opponents hair.

The options i've been looking at taking with my IG are...

DA:
Pros: the new hotness, cheap good tac squads and scouts, ravenwing and deathwing
Cons: other than the devestator squad which is the cheapest and best in the game since it gets flakk missiles all the other heavy choices suck (whirlwind is ok i guess and very cheap at 65 points)

BA:
Pros: strong HQs, sternguard!, fast vehicles (if thats your thing) and great dreadnoughts
Cons: dreadnoughts aren't as great as they used to be in 6e, troops are a bit expensive

GK:
Pros: Strong HQs, good troops and elites, dreadknight!, psyriflemen
Cons: EXPENSIVE point wise, really takes away what you can do with your other atachement, not friends with anyone else

Vanilla:
Pros: scoring sternguard with kantor, droppods that fit 12, ironclad dread?
Cons: a codex that is starting to show it's age, expensive HQs, expensive troops

the other thing you need to think about is which is going to be your primary and which is going to be your secondary detachment?

I was originally going to go IG primary with one of the above secondary to maximize IGs power with 3 heavy slots. The more i looked into i realized i would likely do better with a strong HQ from a detachment as warlord and being able to use 3 elite slots from BA or DA for example.

Another thing you should consider when doing your list is being able to do well in any scenario that is thrown at you come tournament day.

More troops are more better... unfortunetly not every codex has strong or cheap scoring units

need enough firepower to kill your opponent of having 6 troop choices isn't going to help

assaults, my IG have taught me i need at least one unit that can punch people in the face

mobility? i know you love bikes and nobody does it better than ravenwing


thats my 2cts, IG is great if you want bodies on the board or big guns. Anything else lots of space marines codexs to choose from

[Tharcil]

My process is something like this.

Is there a specific model, theme, unit, codex that I want to run?
Does the list have enough troops or survivable troops sufficient for either the bog book scenarios, or for whatever specific tournament scenarios I am gearing up for?
Can the list take out MC, a LR, 2+ armor, a mob?
If the answer to any of the above is no, then what ally can I add that would bridge that gap?

Other things to consider...
I like synergy between units
I also favor a redundancy of purpose over redundancy in units.  By this I mean that I like DA with Guard where I can have the Librarian cast Prescience and the Company Command Squad use Bring it down for re-rolls.  I prefer this to having 2 librarians or two command squads, since there are other options that each can provide.
Personally, and this definitely will not apply to all is will enjoy painting it.  I rarely bring unpainted models to a tournament and take a great deal of pride in how my armies look. I will forgo using a unit or model that is a "must" in any army if I don't like the aesthetics of it.

[GossWeapon]

There is no one way to build things for a whole edition, if you want to win, its more about playing to the metagame.  Whether you want to be the meta or beat the meta is up to you.  Typically the meta beats the other crap, but if you play a build specifically to beat the meta, you usually end up getting tabled by the other crap or you have the next meta list.

Personally I see the game going into a midrange plan for the most part.  So the key parts of the formula for me are:

-a dueling character, hopefully who buffs the rest of the army or supports it well
-one support/anti-tank/flier unit to sit back and shoot
-a big scoring unit (either a TEQ unit or a blob) with staying power and some capabilities
-a way to live through alpha strikes
-early game disruption
-late game sweeper or a tarpit/deathstar for some lists
-solid troops for the rest of the points

Thats my golden plan.  Fliers may not be the gods of 6th, but you need to have a gameplan for them irregardless of whether you kill them, dodge them, or trudge through them.  Big blob squads show up all the time as well as tarpit/deathstars, so be ready to dump out on one.  Finally a support unit like a dev squad to put 4-5 wounds a turn on something or deal with trouble armor when it rears it's ugly head.  For me, necrons are living the meta dream right now, and space wolves stand to prosper a lot if played right.  The leadership bomb also looks to be coming back in part, which can be interesting...

The biggest thing overall, is don't listen to the internet.  If you like something, make it good, don;t discount anything until you playtest it first hand.  What works for some people will not always work well for others.

Oh, and have fun.  If you don't enjoy what you're doing, you will never do it well.

[Mike_k]

I had written an article for this exact topic for the Dark star Facebook page and then proceeded to ctrl+v instead of ctrl+c and lost the whole thing.

Its actually rather simple as there are two approaches to list building that is very consistent among top tier players at events and GT's.

Min/Max builds and by this I dont mean spam ala Stelek style (MOAR Razorbacks=wins). I mean you take as many of the best units your codex(s) can effectively field while still covering the essentials to win missions.  You build your list around efficiency and effectiveness per points spent.

Kitchen Sink builds ala Alex Fennel (very popular style among the CSM guys in general). You take a little bit of everything and create unit combinations to throw at your opponent that will hinder, confuse, and cause poor decisions. Usually very deceptive lists that dont always do only what you think they do.

Regardless of list "style" skill, game knowledge, and practice are huge components to how successful you will be. You can't determine whats effective if you havent put it on the table many times against many armies and generals. You cant deceive players if your trying to figure what their army can and cannot do.

Either way the most important thing is to find what you enjoy and make it work for you.

[Benjamin]

Regardless of list "style" skill, game knowledge, and practice are huge components to how successful you will be. You can't determine whats effective if you havent put it on the table many times against many armies and generals. You cant deceive players if your trying to figure what their army can and cannot do.

Either way the most important thing is to find what you enjoy and make it work for you.

The old poker adage, "If you sit down at a table and don't know who the sucker is, it's you."

The most important thing is to be right. Then winning.

[shwnlyns]

New guy here looking for advise on building DA tactical squads. I'd like to build more shooting style armies and I like guns that shoot a lot, like a heavy bolter, but I see the need for high strength guns like plasma.
Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

[Loranus]

Glad to see a new player taking interest in this thread Shawn.

When building a Squad in your case a DA Tactical Squad you need to think what role will it fulfill. I understand you want to build a shooting style army so you want to have a lot of shots to put into your enemy or a lot of strong decidable shots.

Each Squad of Tactical Marines should fulfill a purpose you give them.

Every Tactical Squad I put in my army is 10 man. This gives you access to heavy and special weapons.

Now think to yourself what you want each squad to achieve.

Do you want the squad to sit on a point in your deployment area? Do you want to move up to meet the enemy? Do you want them to kill Infantry,Elites, or Vehicles?

Breaking it down you can figure out how you want that squad to be built.

Example:
I want a squad to sit back on an objective that is good against Mass Infantry.

Since they are Stationary I will give them a heavy weapon since they will be able to utilize it a majority of the game at full Ballistic Skill. A good anti-infantry Heavy weapon would be the Heavy Bolter. If you have the points left I may consider a Flamer for anything that gets too close or if you do get assaulted.

I want a squad to sit back on an objective that is good against transports and tough Infantry.

Since they are Stationary Heavy weapon. Good against Transports and Vehicles but also being good against Infantry is the Missile Launcher. STR 8 AP 3 means you will kill the Marine Equivalent Unit as well as be able to damage Vehicles and Transports. Frag Missiles give you a small blast that will hit more mass infantry models.

I want a squad that moves up to take objectives that can also take out Elite Infantry (2+ armor).

I would avoid giving a heavy weapon to this squad since they would have to snap fire the weapon since they are mobile and would be a waste of points. Plasma Guns are Rapid Fire and being STR 7 AP 2 will hurt all infantry models without and Invulnerable save.


Those are my thoughts on how to build your Dark Angel Tactical Squads. Use them to help support the rest of your army and have a decent mix of what they do.

Right now I am running 1 Squad to sit on an objective and 3 to move around and be mobile. Any other Heavy weapons I want to use I place in Devastator Squads to provide Covering fire.

Try some things out see how they work for you.

[Achillius]

Oh, and have fun.  If you don't enjoy what you're doing, you will never do it well.

This is the best thing I've read from you in a while

[Tharcil]

New guy here looking for advise on building DA tactical squads. I'd like to build more shooting style armies and I like guns that shoot a lot, like a heavy bolter, but I see the need for high strength guns like plasma.
Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

You are I. Luck if you are interested in DA and lots of shots. The tactical squads with any special or heavy weapons along with the banner if devastation in a command squad should give you plenty if shots!

[Benjamin]

New guy here looking for advise on building DA tactical squads. I'd like to build more shooting style armies and I like guns that shoot a lot, like a heavy bolter, but I see the need for high strength guns like plasma.
Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

You are I. Luck if you are interested in DA and lots of shots. The tactical squads with any special or heavy weapons along with the banner if devastation in a command squad should give you plenty if shots!

Damn, Chris, then get your ass to the store on Thursday and educate this man!

[Sir_Prometheus]

New guy here looking for advise on building DA tactical squads. I'd like to build more shooting style armies and I like guns that shoot a lot, like a heavy bolter, but I see the need for high strength guns like plasma.
Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

Welcome to the hobby.  Here's the thing:  say you have a 10 man squad with 3 plasma guns. As you become a little experienced, you'll start to realize the the 2 plasma shots are more important than the 8 bolter shots. As you become REALLY experienced, you'll learn the value of the 8 bolter shots.

I wish that didn't sound contradictory, but it is totally true.

[Tharcil]

New guy here looking for advise on building DA tactical squads. I'd like to build more shooting style armies and I like guns that shoot a lot, like a heavy bolter, but I see the need for high strength guns like plasma.
Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

You are I. Luck if you are interested in DA and lots of shots. The tactical squads with any special or heavy weapons along with the banner if devastation in a command squad should give you plenty if shots!

Damn, Chris, then get your ass to the store on Thursday and educate this man!

 I'll show on Thursday nights when I dang well feel like it...or when the wife lets me...

[shwnlyns]

So my army (Dark Angels) got wrecked by a Stormraven while I watched some Space Wolves a table over get wrecked by a Heldrake. Even though he had a defense line with Quadgun, he never got the chance to shoot it, so I'm thinking the best aa is probably flyers of your own. So what do you think about the Nephilim Jetfighter as something to shoot down enemy air? my concern is that the missiles are only str 6 and if I replace the lascannons for the avenger bolter it too is only str 6 but 5 shots.

[Tharcil]

So my army (Dark Angels) got wrecked by a Stormraven while I watched some Space Wolves a table over get wrecked by a Heldrake. Even though he had a defense line with Quadgun, he never got the chance to shoot it, so I'm thinking the best aa is probably flyers of your own. So what do you think about the Nephilim Jetfighter as something to shoot down enemy air? my concern is that the missiles are only str 6 and if I replace the lascannons for the avenger bolter it too is only str 6 but 5 shots.

jetfighter is fine (though a bit overcosted) for dealing with AV 10/11 flyers.  However, given the examples you pointed out above AV 12 is another story.  First of Aegis w/Quadgun is not an answer to AV 12. What I am currently working on is spreading out my anti-air for dealing with Helldrakes.  One dev squad that has flakk missiles, two tactical squads each with a flakk missile and I have some allied guard heavy weapons teams that I hope to get luck with (las and autocannons).  I'm not relying on the guard for anti-air, but against a double drake list I throw everything at them. 

The main issue I had in my first few games is that the dev squad is the first thing to burn when the drakes come on and then I had nothing else to deal with them.  By having multiple squads that are spread out, this helps.  Yes the devs will burn first, but then there are 3-4 other options for me to go to.  The other thing that is working ok is putting a librarian or techmarine with a Power field generator with the dev squad.  This way I only lose half the squad when they get burned instead of all of them. 

Fighting double drakes with DA is about mitigating loss so that you are not crippled.  It is very difficult to not give up something to the drakes before you get to your round of shooting, the key is having something left with an effective gun to shoot.