Author Topic: Forgeworld at BG tournaments?  (Read 6780 times)

Chase

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Re: Forgeworld at BG tournaments?
« Reply #45 on: March 01, 2013, 04:27:22 PM »
Haven't got to that point, but if / when we do my current thinking is that we'd allow at least all approved units.
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Grimwulfe

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Re: Forgeworld at BG tournaments?
« Reply #46 on: March 01, 2013, 04:40:11 PM »
Clan Rocksmacker is happy.  Bring on the Bran Redmaw proxy!!  Oh the possibilities...
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keithb

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Re: Forgeworld at BG tournaments?
« Reply #47 on: March 01, 2013, 04:46:54 PM »
If you allow FW then you would need to allow ALL 40k approved FW.  Not just from 2 books.  Has this been discussed?

Why?  I certainly don't see that as true.

Grimwulfe

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Re: Forgeworld at BG tournaments?
« Reply #48 on: March 01, 2013, 04:49:21 PM »
In your own words Keith "why thedouble standard?" we dont limit standard GW codexes why limit the 40k approved FW ones?
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BrianP

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Re: Forgeworld at BG tournaments?
« Reply #49 on: March 01, 2013, 06:12:24 PM »
Of course they should have the rule book and the actual model.  No one is arguing against this.

No one is arguing for it either. You have made a slew of assumptions on how things would be implemented and are making broad statements based on them when frankly the discussion is (currently) as simple as "Allow forgeworld, yes/no? Why?"

This is even more obvious from your last post... As Grimwulfe noted why would you only allow some FW models and not all 40k approved models from every book?

We use plenty of FW models to count as GW models right now. Why is it shocking that someone may want to do the reverse when FW is allowed?

Sure, explaining what one or two models do is trivial, but why is someone suddenly only allowed to bring 2 FW models? What if I have 6? What if my opponent also has 6? What if they are playing an entirely FW approved list? Wanting to not alienate players has come up multiple times, but how long will it take you to explain every unit in your army to someone who is still relatively new to the game?

Playing Sisters, I can tell you for a FACT that it can take 5 minutes to go over all of my army's special rules, each unit's act of faith, and provide documentation when someone says "Celestine cannot die? You are joking... show me. Wait, your faith roll is sometimes a 4 and sometimes a 3? What?" Adding in FW explanations, now our deployment time has been cut in half or more. Sure, that is a "perfect storm" scenario, but certainly possible.

Be less dismissive of the possibility that events may play out differently than how you have assumed, or at the very least share your laundry list of "obvious things" that are required for FW allowance to work and actually contribute some depth to the discussion.

keithb

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Re: Forgeworld at BG tournaments?
« Reply #50 on: March 01, 2013, 06:28:29 PM »
In your own words Keith "why thedouble standard?" we dont limit standard GW codexes why limit the 40k approved FW ones?

There are several outdated FW books.  Basically anything you want should be banned.

keithb

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Re: Forgeworld at BG tournaments?
« Reply #51 on: March 01, 2013, 06:39:44 PM »

No one is arguing for it either. You have made a slew of assumptions on how things would be implemented and are making broad statements based on them when frankly the discussion is (currently) as simple as "Allow forgeworld, yes/no? Why?"

To this point we were mainly discussing interest and finacial repercussions for BG, the two most important issues.  If we get over those hurdles, then we can discuss balance and  other factors.


This is even more obvious from your last post... As Grimwulfe noted why would you only allow some FW models and not all 40k approved models from every book?

We use plenty of FW models to count as GW models right now. Why is it shocking that someone may want to do the reverse when FW is allowed?

Did I say that some FW should be banned? Or did I just suggest that "allowing FW" doesn't automatically mean "allowing all of FW".  That would be the next step in the discussion once we pass the initial part.

Sure, some people might want to, some people might want to use cups as drop pods, but that doesn't mean cups are not legal to drink out of at BG.

Sure, explaining what one or two models do is trivial, but why is someone suddenly only allowed to bring 2 FW models? What if I have 6? What if my opponent also has 6? What if they are playing an entirely FW approved list? Wanting to not alienate players has come up multiple times, but how long will it take you to explain every unit in your army to someone who is still relatively new to the game?

If you are relatively new, odds are I will need to explain a bunch of shit to you anyways.  If I am playing a FW list, you know it is legal because Sam/Chase checked it, and you can fucking read it any time you want during the game.  Shit, my movement phase and deployment might be a good time.  It isn't my fault if your reading comprehension is not good enough to look at stat lines and gear descriptions and figure out what they do.  You can also ask me while I am deploying.  Do you just always play people who aren't helpful?  When I play you, I am going to beat you because I am better than you, not because I sneakily hid what my models could do.

Playing Sisters, I can tell you for a FACT that it can take 5 minutes to go over all of my army's special rules, each unit's act of faith, and provide documentation when someone says "Celestine cannot die? You are joking... show me. Wait, your faith roll is sometimes a 4 and sometimes a 3? What?" Adding in FW explanations, now our deployment time has been cut in half or more. Sure, that is a "perfect storm" scenario, but certainly possible.

Yeah, sisters don't have an actual codex, so it is not very availible BAN TEH SISTAHS!!!11!!ONE!


Be less dismissive of the possibility that events may play out differently than how you have assumed, or at the very least share your laundry list of "obvious things" that are required for FW allowance to work and actually contribute some depth to the discussion.

Have better informed opinions and I will be less dismissive of them.  I have every confidence in the world that Chase/Sam/BG will ABSOLUTELY require actual FW models to play them, and ABSOLUTELY require the rules for said models to be present as well.  It is a non issue.   FW has been allowed at BG events in the past on limited occasions and that is always how it is gone.  BG has megabattles that allow anything/everything, and that is still required.

Maybe instead of getting on my ass about it, you could actually ask the community or chase et al before you assume that people are going to be able to use toothpicks to create their special FW goodness.

I am very aware of what it takes to make FW work.  If you read all of this discussion you'd realize that I started it, and, that I suggested we discuss chase's concerns about finacially damaging the store by allowing FW, as if BG is not comfortable for monetary reasons to allow FW regularly, none of the things you brought up mean shit.

Sir_Prometheus

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Re: Forgeworld at BG tournaments?
« Reply #52 on: March 01, 2013, 07:38:39 PM »
Off topic, but:

Quote from: MM3791
How many Eldar Guardian boxes does GW sell? Probably not very many, they are the worst unit in all 40k game and have been for a long time.

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Grand Master Steve

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Re: Forgeworld at BG tournaments?
« Reply #53 on: March 01, 2013, 07:57:17 PM »
Ok I am done trolling and reading,

Everyone I know who has a large collection of Forgeworld makes regular purchases at BG. They have for years.

Everyone I know who buys primarily online or trades for things has little to no Forgeworld.

This is pretty anecdotal, so I'm not drawing any conclusions. It is pretty interesting, though.

I think I am one of those people. I have no problems with people showing up with Forge World Lists.

On the matter of does it affect GW sales? I like to think not. I am starting a Badab War Chapter that has FW models and add-ons to give my models more cool details. Does it mean they should be banned? I certainly hope not. In my case and in others if you really have a problem with my Special Charecters that make my chapter what it is, I can easily make my own models of equal point cost and just use Vanilla rules.

I want to get away from the Vanilla rules of marines thats why I choose the Badab war Chapter that I did, that and the fact i did a good two days of research on the army on how to paint it and make it look spectacular which my prototype marine as im told does so I am putting it into gear to make 2000 pts of Minotaur Space Marines.

Now my making this Chapter means I am spending money at the store or already have for more non FW stuff. Only 2 models in my army have unique special FW rules. Am I going to buy more FW stuff to suppliment this army? Probably but stuff that is cosmetic and does not affect the game.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2013, 07:58:54 PM by Grand Master Steve »

Sir_Prometheus

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Re: Forgeworld at BG tournaments?
« Reply #54 on: March 01, 2013, 10:17:47 PM »
In your own words Keith "why thedouble standard?" we dont limit standard GW codexes why limit the 40k approved FW ones?

There are several outdated FW books.  Basically anything you want should be banned.

This.

Thefallen

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Re: Forgeworld at BG tournaments?
« Reply #55 on: March 02, 2013, 08:01:58 PM »
I think we should put it to a vote. lets see what the consensus shows.  Is the inclusion of ”40k approved” FW rules even worth the effort?
Put me down for a Yes.
I think the rules are fair. As a fluffy player it would cool to use Fw units instead of spending those points(or way more)  on an ally I don't want. I would be happy to submit a copy of all the pertinent info for review and even pay a little more to include fw units in a turni army.

Chase

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Re: Forgeworld at BG tournaments?
« Reply #56 on: March 02, 2013, 08:26:01 PM »
For better or worse, this will not be put to a vote.

Sorry if that sounds dickish, but it's just not the way we're going to handle it.


edit:  Not all of the people in the community read or post on the boards.  Also, as has been mentioned a few times in this thread, the primary point of discussion is how the allowance of FW stuff impacts BG's sales of GW models / supplies.  I'm not about to deviate from something that seems to be working just fine based on a vote alone.

I am 100% behind giving the community what it wants and experimenting with various things.  I hope that much is clear.  It's just GOT to work well for the business.


Like, what happens if there's a vote on whether or not I should give out GW stuff for free?  Probably won't end well for the business and at least a percentage of the gamers that frequent the stores, but it'd sure be sweet for a while (on your end) though....
« Last Edit: March 02, 2013, 08:54:37 PM by Chase »
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Grand Master Steve

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Re: Forgeworld at BG tournaments?
« Reply #57 on: March 02, 2013, 08:45:54 PM »
What if it was narrowed down to just 2-3 armies that are pure FW models, and lists that use one or 2 FW models that give the army unique special rules? this way you can study the few armies and what those charecters do.

Examples I see for pure FW armies: Death Corp of Kreig, Traitor Imperial Guard. Armies that use one or two models, Grey Knights, more specificly inquisitors, Charchordons space marines, Minotaur Space Marines. This way you can just forget the special FW toys.

Chase

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Re: Forgeworld at BG tournaments?
« Reply #58 on: March 02, 2013, 09:05:11 PM »
If we decide to make FW commonplace at our events, every army will have options available.
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Chase

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Re: Forgeworld at BG tournaments?
« Reply #59 on: March 02, 2013, 09:08:05 PM »
Also, in case people missed it earlier the current plan is to offer more events that allow at least some FW models in the future.

The events in Abington will feature FW more prominently.  Events we hold at either location that are at least somewhat intended to be "GT practice" will likely not allow FW rules / units.
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