Forgeworld at BG tournaments?

[PhoenixFire]

As keith suggest i moved all this from the other thread so we don't jack the tournament thread

Im just curious as to why people can't use 40k approved FW units. Excluding titans and superheavys most FW stuff is pretty balanced (pts to power wise). The ”40k approved” stuff isn't overpowered or broken.  The fill the gaps for some armies.  Not to mention it could help balance the older codexes to the newer ones. Not to mention that players might be able to stand up to and possibly beat those super cheesy net-lists that the WAAC players love so much.
Just curious . Im not trolling.

Im just curious as to why people can't use 40k approved FW units.

Because stores that encourage people to spend money elsewhere rarely stay open.

Im just curious as to why people can't use 40k approved FW units.

Because stores that encourage people to spend money elsewhere rarely stay open.

I think it's probably a lot more than most people would initially consider.

I think it's probably a lot more than most people would initially consider.

I doubt it.  I mean, I know for me, you would get a lot more money out of me RE: Eldar if I could take FW stuff. Otherwise I am not doing the army. I haven't done a different one because I am not doing that either.

How many FW armies are exclusively made from FW models? Hardly any.  Which means they have to buy regular GW stuff, or adding to an army that most people here would have bought here.

There are two situations, people who buy a splash model to supplement their force(IE most people), and people who are going to spend the money to make a mainly FW model army(Older gamer with enough money to do so).   The first situation isn't a problem, shit, it might even sell more GW stuff for you because the local meta will change.

Why stop at Forgeworld chase?  Why not ban the Sporepod that Bill or I bought for our Tyranid army since GW doesn't offer one.  Make it so the only legal sporepod is based on a space marine drop pod so I could possibly buy it here.  I use alternative models in my Fantasy armies(much easier to do than 40k), things that are not availible for sale at BG, should they be banned? 

Seriously, the people who are going to buy/use FW are typically gamers who are heavily invested in the game. People who are heavily invested in the game, have a strong interest in BG doing well as it is the healthiest game store within like 3 hours, and constantly runs the best events. 

Most of us already buy through you despite easy opportunity to buy them cheaper on the internet.
Shit, if it would help I would buy FW through you AND pay you shipping (even though larger orders are often shipped for free), so the store makes a little.  Do you have to follow suggested retail for FW? I would gladly buy a FW item/book that is in the store and a 20$ "Soda" if that is what it takes.

Perhaps we should make this a separate discussion?

That wraithlord farseer guy makes and eldar army, man.  I would totally play an eldar army just for wraithlords and bikes.

[PhoenixFire]

Personally i use Forgeworld models for the look and not the rules.

I use all contemptor dreads because IMO they are far cooler looking and if anything it's a strategic disadvantage to me because they are 2 inches taller and harder to get cover.

I also recently picked up some hersery marines because of the look of them with the intention of making them BA Sternguard. However now i'm stuck with do i buy more to make death company and keep the theme? Or use standard GW troops and while far cheaper would mess up the look.


As far as rules and units, at the last doubles i saw probably half a dozen or more FW units (assault ram, breaching drill, Dark Eldar aircraft carrier, etc)

You have things like the contemptor dreads that have cool rules and new weapon options that IMO aren't game breaking or overpowerd. You also have various tactical options in vehicles like the Landraider variant that can carry 25 troops, or land raider with multimeltas and a tunderfire cannon, etc, etc.

[Achillius]

I missed the move.. but cleaned up after myself

I think it's probably a lot more than most people would initially consider.

I may be inclined to disagree here Chase, consider an Elysian force, the number of Valks that go into the army is not something your average bear will buy.

I'd also suggest that many would buy the book and "Some of the resin" to flesh out the army while converting and using more traditional GW materials for the stock pieces. Not everyone will be able to buy Squads of resin troops enmasse, especially the 15 year old you mentioned in the painting thread.

Just my two cents, ultimately I think having FW available for tournament play would help the hobby in general...

Cheers,
Alan

[robpro]

I'm not really a fan of droppods you can assault out of the turn you arrive or manticore batteries. A lot of armies can access these things through the allies matrix, but it does force you to buy outside of your main force to stay competitive if your goal was to try and win. I think it may really screw over tyranids, not sure what non-apoc stuff they really have access to from FW.

I don't like that there's a huge paywall behind access to the rules for each of these units as well, and most people use them with grainy 3rd gen scans they downloaded off the internet. So you're playing against stuff you don't know the rules for that may interact clunky with the main rules now (aren't most FW things geared for 4th?) Which could make it take longer to resolve issues.

[Sir_Prometheus]

I honestly near-zero financial effect on BG for allowing FW.

I have A TON of FW stuff, let me list it out for you:

• Shas'O Rymr.  Most commonly used as Farsight or generic Shas'O.  No real game effect.
• 1 FW broadside.  No game effect
• 1 FW crisis suit, no game effect
• 2 FW Tau Tetras.  These definitely have their own rules, and no apprpriate proxy, so are not much used
• 27,000 FW doors, guns, and other fancy heraldry for GK vehicles.  No game effect
• Several FW tank gunners (when GKs were all metal, is was the only real way to get one)
• A landspeeder converted with said GK gunners so I could have a GK Lanspeeder (it's like a $90 land speeder, when they were like $30
• The taros campaign book
• One venerable GK dreadnought with the chest drilled out and replaced with a GK gunner.
• 2 complete GK dreadnoughts.

I'll not that at one point, back when in the daemonhunter days, FW were the only real way to get a GK looking force without a lot extensive converting. 

The point is, I may have spent like, $800-$1000 on FW, easy, but of all that, only 1 HQ model and the 2 tetras have any game effect, and the HQ is usually used to represent something else, anyway. 

[the_trooper]

If FW was allowed at Tournaments I would definitely throw my hat into those rings more.

I personally know that my FW purchases, while come from the same bank account as stuff I buy from BG, don't overshadow my BG purchases.

Could it affect other people who shop at BG? Possibly?  I wouldn't discount Chase's fears on that as he is the businessman, I'm the gamer/customer who is ignorant of his worries outside of the simple "pay where you play attitude" I try to have.

Now, given GW's current attitude, I will need any incentive to purchase GW I can get. So if BG starts allowing FW (while being the same company, aren't dicks)in tournaments, I will have the incentive to keep buying GW to use the FW kits.

The double's tournament is the only reason I've been eyeing a Stormtalon and Stormraven for my Carcharodons which require FW rules to function properly.

[PhoenixFire]

I'm not really a fan of droppods you can assault out of the turn you arrive or manticore batteries. A lot of armies can access these things through the allies matrix, but it does force you to buy outside of your main force to stay competitive if your goal was to try and win. I think it may really screw over tyranids, not sure what non-apoc stuff they really have access to from FW.

I don't like that there's a huge paywall behind access to the rules for each of these units as well, and most people use them with grainy 3rd gen scans they downloaded off the internet. So you're playing against stuff you don't know the rules for that may interact clunky with the main rules now (aren't most FW things geared for 4th?) Which could make it take longer to resolve issues.

it would certainly make more work for BG (mostly Sam) in making sure the lists are legal and hand checking everyones FW datasheets to ensure they have the most current legal one. If you look at this list it is the allowable Forgeworld units from last years Adepticon. It conveniently shows where to find the most current rules for each entry (because Apoc and FW have sooo many books and updates) which armies can use it, and which slot it takes up.

It's also interesting that certain units can be taken for the Team Tournament, the Gladiator Tournament, and the "Friendly" tournament, not all entries are usable for all tournaments. It also looks like none of them are legal for the Adepticon GT.

http://www.adepticon.org/12rules/201240KIAApoc.pdf

I think forgeworld units would be a great dash of spice to team tournaments and other "fun" tournaments. As far as the normal tournaments however, they often serve as practice for people attending Nova, Adepticon, Templecon, etc and since FW units aren't legal at those GTs (to the best of my knowledge) running into FW stuff at BG they won't see at the big tournaments won't really give them the practice they need.

just my 2cts

[Logan007]

One suggestion would be to try out FW armies/units at an Abington BG "non qualifying" singles tournament and see how it works out. Maybe then it can be phased into the regular tournament scene if the impact isn't what we feared.

[keithb]

Just to be clear, I think the discussion should follow this path.

1) figure out how much buying FW hurts BG financially, and if there are solutions to this problem.  Depending on how much if any of a financial hit BG would take by regularly or semi regularly allowing FW models/rules.  This seems to be the first concern on Chase's mind when contemplating allowing FW, so it should be the first one we address.

2) Availibility/balance/increased workload.  Sure, maybe this means that running events that allow FW is more work, maybe it means that not 100% of FW is allowed as some of it is "unbalanced" (like regular 40k is all good in that regard  ).  It doesn't mean that EVERY event has to allow FW, but having some reliance on it being done many times a year would be incentive.  I am not going to make a FW Eldar army to play in one doubles event per year.  Sorry. Not going to happen.  but if there were 3-5 events a year, or leagues that allowed it(that i acutally had time for), I would.  Also, I certainly wouldn't mind taking an event off to help run an event from time to time.  I wouldn't want to put this all on Chase/Sam.

[keithb]

As to point 1. 

A)  Many gamers come to BG from several hours away, for example,  Alex Fennel, Sean Nayden, Ragnar Arneson, and plenty of people I don't know.  These people probably buy most of their product from their local store, or at least not at BG.   Should they be banned for not buying their armies at BG?  Obviously not, no one is suggesting this.

B) Let's say I have an army made up of entirely FW models(say deathcorp).  In BG events I run them as standard IG as is legal in any/every event over the last 2 years(at least).  Should this army be banned because I bought FW models and therefore contributed nothing to BG?  Obviously not, no one is suggesting this.

C) Let's say I bought my entire army from the warstore online and ebay.  Should I be banned from BG events for not contributing to their sales? Obviously not, no one is suggesting this.

D) Let's say I am starting an eldar FW army.  This will result in 70-80% of my army being bought from BG, and the remainder from FW.  CANNOT USE, MAYBE ONCE A YEAR.


Why is D worse than A, B, or C?  BG already depends on and trusts its community to pay where they play and support the stores.  I don't see how allowing FW in ~50% of events would change this relationship in the slightest.  I am not going to stop supporting BG regardless of the decision that is ultimately made. 

[PhoenixFire]

Just to be clear, I think the discussion should follow this path.

1) figure out how much buying FW hurts BG financially, and if there are solutions to this problem.  Depending on how much if any of a financial hit BG would take by regularly or semi regularly allowing FW models/rules.  This seems to be the first concern on Chase's mind when contemplating allowing FW, so it should be the first one we address.

2) Availibility/balance/increased workload.  Sure, maybe this means that running events that allow FW is more work, maybe it means that not 100% of FW is allowed as some of it is "unbalanced" (like regular 40k is all good in that regard  ).  It doesn't mean that EVERY event has to allow FW, but having some reliance on it being done many times a year would be incentive.  I am not going to make a FW Eldar army to play in one doubles event per year.  Sorry. Not going to happen.  but if there were 3-5 events a year, or leagues that allowed it(that i acutally had time for), I would.  Also, I certainly wouldn't mind taking an event off to help run an event from time to time.  I wouldn't want to put this all on Chase/Sam.

#1: i'm honestly not sure if there is any... people who like the look of Forgeworld are going to buy it if BGs tournaments allow it or not. Will BG allowing Forgeworld at tournaments cause people to buy more stuff from Forgeworld? Perhaps, but it would likely be stuff that GW has no equivalent for anyway and therefore not affecting BG sales.

#2a: More work for Sam and Chase? absolutely, like i said earlier it will require Sam doing even more thorough checking of lists and having to check hard copies of datasheets to make sure they are the most current legal ones.

#2b: Balance? well as Keith pointed out 40k isn't perfectly balanced as is. Not to mention a lot of the forgeworld "overpowered" units took a hit in 6th edition with the vehicle nerfs. I think this would require some in-depth research using the Adepticon Forgeworld legal list as a starting point.

I'm not saying BG should look at allowing forgeworld at every event because i think Forgeworld should be the exception, not the rule.

However it would be nice to see more "exceptions" then the once a year doubles and Megabattle

[MM3791]

Most of us already buy through you despite easy opportunity to buy them cheaper on the internet.

This.

Im just curious as to why people can't use 40k approved FW units. Excluding titans and superheavys most FW stuff is pretty balanced (pts to power wise). The ”40k approved” stuff isn't overpowered or broken.  The fill the gaps for some armies.  Not to mention it could help balance the older codexes to the newer ones. Not to mention that players might be able to stand up to and possibly beat those super cheesy net-lists that the WAAC players love so much.
Just curious . Im not trolling.

These are all very accurate and very valid points that many people(including myself) have made in the past. The forgeworld debate always resurfaces, and I believe will eventually will be put in place.. its just too popular to continue banning. Have separate, non-titan tournaments if thats what it takes to start..

[Ian Mulligan]

My renegade guard is a Forgeworld army. I spent more on it at BG than with Forgeworld. Those are purchases I normally would not have made had the FW models not inspired me.

Forgeworld offers an incentive to make more purchases of regular, BG stocked GW kits.

[MM3791]

Forgeworld offers an incentive to make more purchases of regular, BG stocked GW kits.

Forgeworld offers incentive for people to start entire armies that they wouldn't normally play. One very popular one is Eldar Corsairs and Wraithseers, both in which still contain like 90% regular GW Battleground models anyways.

[andalucien]

Yeah I think there's something to that... I would seriously consider starting an Ork army if I knew I would get to play with Grot Tanks. 

And "but you CAN - in casual play!" isn't a perfect answer here.   I don't have a ton of time to play, I would say half of the games I play are in tournaments, when I'm able to negotiate a day off   And these are also where I meet people, etc....  not being able to play with a model in a tournament to me pretty much means I will never play with it (since much of the other games are trying to squeeze in a little practice for said tournaments)