Author Topic: Results: Battleground 40k Invitational 2012  (Read 2379 times)

The Everliving

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Re: Results: Battleground 40k Invitational 2012
« Reply #15 on: January 09, 2013, 07:41:35 PM »
Agree with Simon. Coteaz is far more broken than Celestine. I cannot remember the last time I played a GK list that didn't have this chump. He's worse than 4th edition Eldrad for turning up in _every_ variant of the army.

andalucien

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Re: Results: Battleground 40k Invitational 2012
« Reply #16 on: January 09, 2013, 11:22:13 PM »
Yeah... what do you think would be a fair price for Coteaz?  I think that if he cost 200 points, some folks would still use him.
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Sir_Prometheus

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Re: Results: Battleground 40k Invitational 2012
« Reply #17 on: January 10, 2013, 12:06:00 AM »
See, now, the difference is that you can kill Coteaz.

 Fair price for Coteaz, honestly?  Maybe about 150 pts, same as a Librarian.  He's got some neat little extra abilities over a libby, but they don't get used that much, and he's T3 and no invo save.  I'm careful with him, but he gets doubled out by plasma or random str 6 weaponry surprisingly often.  The ability to take Henchmen is key to a lot of people, but personally I don't really love henchmen troops and rarely use him for that. 

I've been honestly looking to switch him out for a libby but the spare 50 pts is hard to come by.  But yeah, fair price for him is about 150.

Celestine?  Consider that she costs the same as Anval Thawn(40 base for the termie, and 75 for the upgrade), who has the same ability but is otherwise just a mook.  He's probably about the right cost, or maybe just tad too expensive--I often think of taking him but don't.  But Celestine is highly mobile and a combat beast, she can cross the board easily and will on average kill about half a tac squad.  She often denies you Slay the Warlord and can easily contest objectives.  There is absolutely nothing smart you can do against her...try to tie her up with something tough that will have trouble killing her, like a Dakka-dread?  Lame, and good luck catching her, anyway. 

Appropriate cost is something north of 200....225?  She's doesn't have the punch of Mephiston, but the unkillable thing is a pretty huge deal.  Really, I don't think something like her should exist.  The fact she's completely unkillable removes tactical sophistication and makes the opponent feel helpless. 

Sir_Prometheus

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Re: Results: Battleground 40k Invitational 2012
« Reply #18 on: January 10, 2013, 12:36:30 AM »
I''l revise that a little bit...Coteaz is fairly easily definable.  He's got a host of little cool abilities but is physically inferior to a librarian.  I basically only take him because he's cheaper than a librarian (and the I like the model, and mine is, personally, I think the best paintjob I have done yet, so that's something). If he cost 150 pts, I would probably take the librarian instead, so he's either 150 or maybe a little less.

Celestine is a lot less definable, the unkillable thing is pretty unique.  Several times as much as Thawn? Thawn is probably a little overcosted, now that I think about it, and comparing her to him the way you do a normal HQ to a standard sergeant doesn't really work.  A lot, anyway.  200+.

Banosby

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Re: Results: Battleground 40k Invitational 2012
« Reply #19 on: January 10, 2013, 02:36:29 AM »
She has six attacks on the charge. She hits on 3s, meaning 4 hits. She wounds on 4s, meaning two wounds on average. That 10 man tac squad would hold her up for five rounds of combat, if she was magically charging every turn. She isn't, so it'll likely be longer. Her inability to really kill anything (she can't kill TEQ at all and keep in mind she doesn't get any better at killing little things; a squad of gaunts or gargoyles or boys will hold her up forever) is what makes her easier to deal with.

If you surround your objective with a ring of troops, she can't do much. She could try to pull them off, but that'll only work if you didn't place them well. She does help with Slay the Warlord, but only really if the Sister player is going second, and I haven't been to any tournaments that used that anyway (which is something I'd prefer to change, but I'm not in charge).

She's good, but she's only really good at contesting objectives and Slay the Warlord; she doesn't really do anything else. And there are absolutely things to be done about the objective issue, which is the biggest. And keep in mind which codex she's in; if you think she's undercosted, just consider all the points we have to pay for our horrid troops as really being points we pay for her.

And Coteaz is a beast for just the reasons you mentioned; he does what a Librarian does for cheaper while also unlocking some very good troops. Even if the troops aren't your style, I hope you'll agree that there is a lot of utility there. Oh, and how many points is the opponent re-rolling seizing worth? Re-rolling your own attempt to seize is nice, but almost never being seized on is gold because you no longer have to deploy with that possibility in mind.

Sir_Prometheus

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Re: Results: Battleground 40k Invitational 2012
« Reply #20 on: January 10, 2013, 03:20:42 AM »
no, re-rolling to seize is not worth much, sorry.  It's kinda nice to know people will not seize on you, bu that's about it.

It's easy to peg Coteaz--he's undercosted sure, but 150 is the pretty easily the cap-- like I said , I'd rather take the Libby at that point. 

You forgot to mention Celestine's heavy flamer, and what is her faith power again?  Something good, I'd imagine. 

Benjamin

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Re: Results: Battleground 40k Invitational 2012
« Reply #21 on: January 10, 2013, 08:08:09 AM »
So a well-designed tournament will account for these two models, Celestine and Crowe?

Grimwulfe

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Re: Results: Battleground 40k Invitational 2012
« Reply #22 on: January 10, 2013, 09:15:39 AM »
Coteaz Ben geesh not Crowe!! 

Just for the record I play both Crowe and Coteaz and i like it!!
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andalucien

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Re: Results: Battleground 40k Invitational 2012
« Reply #23 on: January 10, 2013, 10:56:06 AM »
Also remember, I've been expecting you.  If you're facing Daemons (not so unusual these days), this ability has gotta be worth another 50 points by itself. 

Here's my "breakdown":
Divination Librarian in termie armour with daemonhammer: 100 pts
Assault d6 bolter: 10 pts
I've been expecting you: 10 pts:
Unlock henchmen as troops:  I love the henchmen, so I'd probably pay 60 points JUST for this ability with no actual guy attached. 
Reroll steal the initiative: 15 points.
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195.  Am I missing anything?

DISCLAIMER:  This chart is total spitballing and consists mainly of BS.

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Where I play: basically I only show up for tourneys or when I'm on my way up to New Hampshire to visit my folks.  I live about 45 mins from both stores, to the south.

Sir_Prometheus

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Re: Results: Battleground 40k Invitational 2012
« Reply #24 on: January 10, 2013, 11:48:54 AM »
So a well-designed tournament will account for these two models, Celestine and Crowe?

No, there is no accounting Celestine, she's a stupid unit.  Coteaz is mostly just a cheaper libby.  He has both upsides and downsides compared to one.

The only reason I mentioned it was Simon was kinda on the side going "whoa is me" about his sisters.  Sisters are strong, and for the record I think the WD 'dex is better than the codex that went before it.  It doesn't really cater to the kind of Immolator spam list Simon was playing previously, though. 

Moosifer

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Re: Results: Battleground 40k Invitational 2012
« Reply #25 on: January 10, 2013, 12:57:34 PM »
So a well-designed tournament will account for these two models, Celestine and Crowe?

No, there is no accounting Celestine, she's a stupid unit.  Coteaz is mostly just a cheaper libby.  He has both upsides and downsides compared to one.

The only reason I mentioned it was Simon was kinda on the side going "whoa is me" about his sisters.  Sisters are strong, and for the record I think the WD 'dex is better than the codex that went before it.  It doesn't really cater to the kind of Immolator spam list Simon was playing previously, though.

Coteaz is completely undercosted, just for his ability to unlock dirt cheap scoring units.  He probably should be a 165-175 point model

Banosby

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Re: Results: Battleground 40k Invitational 2012
« Reply #26 on: January 10, 2013, 01:02:28 PM »
You forgot to mention Celestine's heavy flamer, and what is her faith power again?  Something good, I'd imagine.

I didn't mention it because you didn't mention it. Also because it'll kill, what, 2/3 of a marine if you get three under the template?

Her faith power is called I Don't Have One and doesn't do much.

Do you think that all the Necron characters and Yarrick are broken too? From what I understand, they all have the chance at getting back up.

keithb

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Re: Results: Battleground 40k Invitational 2012
« Reply #27 on: January 10, 2013, 01:25:34 PM »
no, re-rolling to seize is not worth much, sorry.  It's kinda nice to know people will not seize on you, bu that's about it.

It's easy to peg Coteaz--he's undercosted sure, but 150 is the pretty easily the cap-- like I said , I'd rather take the Libby at that point. 

You forgot to mention Celestine's heavy flamer, and what is her faith power again?  Something good, I'd imagine.

Please, Coteaz is in almost every GK list, and is the defacto HQ choice for any GK allied detachment.

Oh, is it nice to know you won't be seized on?  Come on.  Also a lvl 2 psycher(I have to pay 280 points to get one), plus force weapon, and his special shooting if someone arrives from reserve thing.  He is worth way more than 100 points, esp in a generally "expensive" book.

Junker

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Re: Results: Battleground 40k Invitational 2012
« Reply #28 on: January 10, 2013, 02:21:15 PM »
He is definitely undercosted. His popularity proves the point. However, many books have something obscenely cheap for their abilities (e.g., grey hunters, vendettas, tervigons, flamers, screamers, scythes).

Sir_Prometheus

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Re: Results: Battleground 40k Invitational 2012
« Reply #29 on: January 10, 2013, 02:29:31 PM »
I SAID he's undercosted.  But if he cost more than 150, I'd just take a libby instead.  I'd really much rather have a libby, I just don't want to pay the extra 50pts.  I really only occasionally henchmen so that isn't the point for me. 

Keith, your lvl 2 psyker is a god beast, it's more useful to compare him to Draigo.  And yes, Draigo is a better deal than him, are we making this competition on who has the sorriest codex?  GK ain't it obviously, but neither are tyranids, not even close. 

Simon, let's turn this around:  How much do you think Celestine should cost?  Try not to make me snort my milk.