Australia's decision on Necron

[Typhus]

Thoughts?

http://www.3plusplus.net/2012/12/do-necrons-in-flyers-take-hits-or-not/

I mean, I know they are a penal colony and all, but how do the rest of us GT going people think about their interpretation?

[Benjamin]

I think people are really over-thinking this.

My completely unofficial interpretation has always been that Necrons enter from reserves unscathed. Codex over rules, and codex overrules.

[BrianP]

I think the interpretation and ruling is spot on.

Ben: The Codex only over-rules how they enter play, it does not affect any of the other steps in the process.

Because the logic is well represented in the ruling I'm quoting it below, emphasis is mine:

Are Necrons treated as being on board their transports when they are destroyed?
“There is absolutely no mention in either the codex rules or the Necron rules FAQ that the Necrons are not currently within the vehicle whilst “embarked”. (There is also a precedent set in the FAQ for models on board to be subject to vehicle effects such as having their shooting limited on the turn they disembark due to the speed of the vehicle that turn.) All that is stated is that they move to reserve rather than disembarking when the vehicle is destroyed.

As damage suffered by a unit in the case of a destroyed vehicle is a different part of the process to disembarking from a destroyed vehicle (that is – the unit suffers the damage from the vehicle destruction rather than from the act of disembarking from the destroyed vehicle), the ruling for this event (unless FAQed to the contrary between now and then) will be that all models on board will suffer damage as normal before moving to reserves.”

The rule in the Necron codex simply states that if their transport is destroyed, the unit enters from reserves instead of disembarking as normal. The rule for Crash and Burn explicitly puts damage resolution before disembarkation, the Necron codex's alteration to the rules only comes into affect after damage from the crash has been resolved. So, just as any models which survive the S10 hit from a regular flier get put on the table, any Necrons which survive the S10 hit from the Scythe instead get put into reserves as per their rule.

Why do you think they remain unscathed?

[Benjamin]

I guess my only argument really is, what's the point of the Necron rule then? We can't blame the "gap" between editions, because Necrons were released as 6th was in development.

The way it's worded, I'd expect Sam to agree with it, given his sound policy of literal hyper-logic.

Either way, it would be nice to have a definitive answer.

[BrianP]

You could make the argument the point of the rule is to penalize (i.e., balance) the ability for the troops to disembark nearly anywhere on the board with reliability. To my knowledge, no other flying transport has the ability to drop your troops exactly where you want them without sacrificing the need to skyfire at it -- so to balance that, if the flier goes down the troops inside start in reserves.

Now, that is definitely over thinking it - most likely GW had a fluffy reason for it... but we could spend hours upon hours coming up with fluffy reasons for or against it so that is not really worth our time.

Think of it this way -> Scythes cannot land to disembark troops, as such it has the technology to beam them down. The shorter distance makes this much more reliable than conventional teleportation (e.g., terminators from space) so there are never conventional deep strike issues such as scatter. However, Scythes cannot beam their contents down precisely as they are crashing, so the occupants usually do not end-up at the crash site. Some are destroyed before they can make it to the teleporters, some are teleported in 100 different directions and destroyed, and others go into ongoing reserves (just like deep-strike mishaps) and enter from a table edge.

[Benjamin]

I thought too maybe it can be seen as a penalty or a trade off. After all, you're putting them in a transport for mobility and suddenly they're right back where they started on the board edge. *sad trombone*

Does the actual fluff for the Night Scythe make any allusion at all about what's supposed to be happening? I'm just curious.

[andalucien]

Good question, Ben.

The fluff states that the Necrons transported are never actually ON the night scythe at all.   Rather, when it comes time to "disembark", the night scythe activates its "captive wormhole" and transports them onto the battlefield from wherever they were waiting.   If the "transport" is destroyed, it just means the arrival of the "transported" necrons is delayed since they can't use the wormhole anymore.

So, we have a case where the rules as written clearly indicate that the Necrons would take the damage, but it's equally crystal clear that this isn't how the designers intended it to work.  In other words, GW screwed up here and it's up to us to fix it one way or the other until FAQ comes along and says they don't take the damage. 

[andalucien]

Hmm, just reread it... the fluff even has this line about the strange wormhole method of transporting, as it relates to the Scythe being destroyed:

"Though this invariably prevents the squad from taking part
in the immediate battle, this is preferable to them being destroyed outright as they can join the campaign's later stages."

So yeah, can't get much more clear than that.  But... this is in the fluff paragraph, not the rules paragraph...  i would put the lack of rules clarification on the level of a typo.

[SyRael]

The only thing I have to say is we must first decide if the units are on the flyer. How can a unit not on board take damage? If the unit is infact on board the flyer, then yes I can agree with some type of beam issue fluff that does harm. If they ride, they burn just like anyone eles would. If they don't ride, then how can they burn?

[SyRael]

http://www.theruleslawyers.com/2012/09/6th-edition-rulings-necron-night-scythes-crash-and-burn-and-embarked-models/

Another take that looks futher into the order of ops. for rules taking place. This makes the most sense. Crash and burn resolves after the flyer is removed, never allowing for the rule to hit the units. Also, the basic rule of "codex always trumps core rule book" will take effect. It seems that this is what most people are playing with in the rest of the world. Also, other parts of the crash and burn rule cannot take place, such as placing survivors in the blast marker's final position due to the codex rule taking the unit back into reserves. Thus, if we alow the codex rule to trump any part of crash and burn, then the rule  "codex always" wins will in effect win.

On rare occasions, a conflict will arise between a rule in this rulebook, and one printed in a codex.  Where this occurs, the rule printed in the codex always takes precedence.” 6th Edition BGB p. 4

Also, if you do alow crash and burn to take place, where do you place the reanimation protocols markers? Each mark must be placed on the spot of the fallen unit. Crash and burn  will now alow the RP markers to then be placed anywhere the cron player wishes within the 3 in.  of the blast marker. However, since there is no maker location, RP marks, which can by rules take place, cannot be rolled due to the location issue. Read cron codex pg29. Thus, one must think thatvthe idea is now to have the codex rule trump crash and burn as the core book states on pg 4

[SyRael]

After looking into more of the FaQ. the unit is in fact embarked on the flyer. The rule below in of itself is unimportaint, but does make it clear that the unit is infact embarked. If they ride they burn. However, the order of rules that take place  and if a codex trumps, then when does it trump, are what needs to be explored. As of right now codex rules and player selection of order is what is running in the UK and US. The rules order are not like magic where if this then that happens and rules can stack. The core book gives order of phase and sub phase, but gives the player  rule order selection within the sub phase. Think about this basic exmpl. In overwatch, the player can select which gun snaps first.There is no rule that forces a pistal to shoot over a flame thrower. The player selects the resolution of the rules during the sub phase, because the core book knows that many diffrent rules resolve at the same time.

page51–Night Scythes. Add the following special rule: “Invasion Beams: A unit that begins its Movement phase embarked upon a Night Scythe can disembark before or after the vehicle has moved( including pivoting on the spot,etc) so long as the vehicle has not moved more than 36".If the Night Scythe moves more than 24"in the same turn, the disembarking unit can only fire Snap Shots.

[andalucien]

They are definitely considered "embarked on" the flier in terms of game mechanics (except for the one possible exception we we are discussing).  My point is that if you read the fluff, you can see that the night  scythe is clearly INTENDED to keep the necrons safely in reserve if the scythe is destroyed - they just didn't print that explicitly in the rules section. 

And yes, you're right, if you want to try to go strictly by RAW, and say that the unit takes the hits, you then need to also answer the question "what happens next"... in terms of resurrection protocols, etc.  You are now in the position of totally making up new rules to govern this situation which are not mentioned at all anywhere... how is this RAW?   

The more I think about it, the more it seems like saying they don't take the hits is the only reasonable thing to do.

[SyRael]

I agree, they do not take the hits. And until otherwise stated by FaQ, then we will have to play this way at any BG event. Unless BG wishes to take a stand and exspln. thier thoughts on this subject.

[Sam]

Heh. This is actually a situation where my original ruling from ages ago hasn't been overruled by later FAQs. So I'll stick with what I originally wrote:

"If a zooming Night Scythe is destroyed, do embarked troops go into reserve before or after s10 hits?" Ooh, good one. The rules aren't clear on when exactly the unit goes into reserve, but I'm going to rule it as happening before the actual crash, triggered by the initial destroyed state of the flier. So no crashing damage for transported troops.

So, basically exactly what the Rules Lawyers said.

[Mannahnin]

A quick point on the fluff- apparently in the 40k novel Hammer & Anvil, the Sisters of Battle destroy a Nightscythe, and the Necrons waiting to come through are also destroyed as the explosion comes through the portal.