Author Topic: Cover for Monstrous Creatures  (Read 1795 times)

King of the Elves

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Re: Cover for Monstrous Creatures
« Reply #15 on: December 19, 2012, 10:38:32 PM »
Ben has played (and placed) in many 40K tournaments and events and is a "veteran" when it comes to playing 40K. I would suggest calling GW and asking them yourself if you do not believe him. That is the only suggestion I can give.   

Benjamin

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Re: Cover for Monstrous Creatures
« Reply #16 on: December 19, 2012, 10:50:49 PM »
Oh my, don't ever take my word on anything! I'm just throwing out what I see as I see it. I'm just as likely to stand corrected, especially when it comes to 6th. But thank you. :)

Grimwulfe

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Re: Cover for Monstrous Creatures
« Reply #17 on: December 20, 2012, 09:09:12 AM »
Ben is correct.  If the MC isnt 25% covered then is doesnt matter what is in front of him he still doesnt get a cover save.

Joker you seem new to me so I would suggest that you take the advice of several seasoned players that have responded to you we are not hear to veer you in the wrong direction.
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J0kerr

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Re: Cover for Monstrous Creatures
« Reply #18 on: December 20, 2012, 11:42:57 AM »
I have just gathered information around the web from here, dakkadakka, and other sites and it is a very hot topic since it makes tyranids more or less deadly. I plan to play in GW tournaments so I want to make sure I am 100% behind the rules.

I wish they would put out a FAQ on this one question.

But I guess if we are going to play tournaments at the store they need to be covered 25% or more to get the cover save.

UPDATE: Just called GW. The operator said that to get the cover save from having a unit in front only works if the unit in front covers 50% of the model in the back. No Terivigons hiding behind ripper swarms.

UPDATE 2: Also he said that each tournament holder can rule as they seem fit as each tournament holder can include special rules or changed rules.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2012, 12:09:14 PM by J0kerr »

Grimwulfe

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Re: Cover for Monstrous Creatures
« Reply #19 on: December 20, 2012, 11:51:51 AM »
I was never aware this was a hot topic.  Its pretty straight forward to me and my friends.  However its good you want to make sure you have everything correct before getting into competative play.  There is never to much knowledge.
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Chris

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Re: Cover for Monstrous Creatures
« Reply #20 on: December 20, 2012, 01:45:01 PM »

UPDATE: Just called GW. The operator said that to get the cover save from having a unit in front only works if the unit in front covers 50% of the model in the back. No Terivigons hiding behind ripper swarms.

UPDATE 2: Also he said that each tournament holder can rule as they seem fit as each tournament holder can include special rules or changed rules.

I would personally never go from what a GW customer service rep says for rules.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2012, 03:25:12 PM by Chris »
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Grimwulfe

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Re: Cover for Monstrous Creatures
« Reply #21 on: December 20, 2012, 01:47:02 PM »
5th edition was 50%

6th edition is 25%
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Benjamin

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Re: Cover for Monstrous Creatures
« Reply #22 on: December 21, 2012, 12:38:39 AM »
Call GW back. I'm willing to bet you get a different answer.

Chase

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Re: Cover for Monstrous Creatures
« Reply #23 on: December 21, 2012, 03:31:34 AM »
For what it's worth, I'm pretty sure GW sponsors only 1 event in the US these days.

Fortunately for me, Ard Boyz is dead.  That eliminates all the "sanctioned" GW events as far as this half of the country is concerned.

To the point:  There is no such thing as a "GW tournament" anymore.

UPDATE: Just called GW. The operator said that to get the cover save from having a unit in front only works if the unit in front covers 50% of the model in the back. No Terivigons hiding behind ripper swarms.

It's SO bad that the CS reps are giving people the wrong answers and just making things up.  I can think of little that is worse for the game (other than continuing to price people out of it).  If they aren't sure I wish they'd just say so.  Like Troy (Grimwulfe) says, in 5th edition it was 50%.  In 6th edition it is now 25%.


An MC needs to be 25% obscured or greater to get a cover save.  Expect this to be how it's ruled at all events Battleground hosts, and probably all of the events in the region.

As far as an official GW judge goes, did such a thing ever exist (seriously)?  Our judge, Sam, does not frequent the forums but I can promise you he's very good, very fair, knows the rules very well, and would rule that an MC needs to be 25% obscured or greater to receive its cover save.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2012, 03:43:34 AM by Chase »
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Ian Mulligan

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Re: Cover for Monstrous Creatures
« Reply #24 on: December 21, 2012, 12:22:57 PM »
I have never seen or heard of an official GW judge in my 15 years in this game.
beep bop boop

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Re: Cover for Monstrous Creatures
« Reply #25 on: December 21, 2012, 02:30:40 PM »
Joker, the majority of the tournaments these days are from independent operators.  Grimwulfe has a solid grasp on the basics, and if you do not believe him or ben, keithb helps run one of those independant GTs.  So look to your gaming community before you call GW, because they are in the model business.

From what it sounds like if you are using YMTC from Dakka, it is a bunch of rules lawyering toolbags who like to argue grammatical points rahter than the rule itself.  The rules are solid in the book (shocking) so there is no need for YTMC to get even close to this
« Last Edit: December 21, 2012, 02:51:32 PM by Moosifer »

J0kerr

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Re: Cover for Monstrous Creatures
« Reply #26 on: December 21, 2012, 02:47:08 PM »
Since I will be playing at the battlegrounds....25% it is.

Seth

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Re: Cover for Monstrous Creatures
« Reply #27 on: December 22, 2012, 03:09:14 PM »
model the tervigon laying down
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Mannahnin

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Re: Cover for Monstrous Creatures
« Reply #28 on: December 24, 2012, 02:09:10 PM »
Speaking for Dakka, the "rules-lawyering toolbags" are a small (albeit vocal and annoying) minority.   ;)

FWIW, I do think this question is a slightly complicated area and one of some ambiguity in the 6th ed 40k rules. 

In 5th edition, monstrous creatures had a good deal in common with vehicles in terms of LOS & cover- to gain a cover save, an MC had to have 50% of its body (disregarding wings & tail, if any) physically hidden from the firer, as did a vehicle with the armor facing being targeted.  Both of these stood in contrast to other models, which just had to have any tiny piece of the targeted model's body hidden, OR be in area terrain, OR be targeted between raised elements of a piece of area terrain ACROSS that terrain, OR be targeted through/between models in an intervening unit.

Now, in 6th, the rules have been tweaked a bit and the way different models get cover is more similar to one another.  Now MCs can get cover saves from area terrain the same way other models do, and vehicles are the only exception.  Now every model is subject to needing to be 25% hidden (25% of the targeted facing still, for vehicles) if they're not in area terrain, as opposed to any tiny piece of the model's body (or 50% body/facing for MCs and vehicles), like in 5th. 

Three other changes:
1. Cover saves are now model by model instead of "all or none"; in 5th, if half or more of the models in the targeted unit were in cover from the perspective of half or more of the firing models, the whole unit got a cover save.  Now each model either is in cover or not in cover.
2. The other thing that changed in the requirement above is that instead of "half or more of the firing models", as in 5th, it's "at least one" firing model.
3. Area terrain no longer generally confers a cover save for shooting ACROSS it.  If the targeted model isn't actually in it, it needs to be 25% hidden.  With the exception of Forests (see page 102); which have a specific rule that if at least one of the firing models is drawing LOS across a forest, cover is granted.

Other than area terrain and shooting across forests, the only other time you can get a cover save in 6th without being 25% hidden, is when you're being shot across/through an intervening unit.  Check out page 18 again.  While it does say that a 5+ cover save is conferred in the same way as behind terrain, the next two sentences tell us that "Similarly, if a model fires through the gaps between models in an intervening unit, the target is in cover, even if it is completely visible to the firer.  Note that this does not apply if the shots go over the unit rather than through it."

So, we know that a model which is totally visible to the firing model can still be in cover if LOS is traced to them between to models in an intervening unit.

The area of ambiguity comes in determining WHEN LOS counts as being drawn between the models, as opposed to OVER them. 

Back in 5th the guideline that was generally used was to draw LOS from the firer's eyes (which is still the standard, see p8), to all parts of the target's body- head to toe.  If you could draw a line from the eyes to the bottom of the feet without that line going through the plane drawn between the tops of two models in the intervening unit, you had a clean LOS and no cover. 

Now in 6th, it would appear that the same procedure should be used, but instead of the bottom of the feet, we've got to go with whatever point on the model constitutes the 25% line for that model's mass/silhouette, as the requirement is now 25% hidden.  And it looks to me like that empty air between models in an intervening unit is to be treated (per page 18) as something that confers cover saves.

At least that's my take on it.  I'd be happy to hear other thoughts.

Chase

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Re: Cover for Monstrous Creatures
« Reply #29 on: December 25, 2012, 02:29:21 AM »
That's a pretty damn good post right there.  Interesting.
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