[Plainville MA] Battleground's Warhammer 40k Invitational 2012

[Sir_Prometheus]

How are generated units such as termagants being handled for VPs and KPs? Are they base cost for purposes of scoring quarters and opponent scoring VP? Are they worth nothing in both cases? Are they worth KP?

For the record, they HAVE to be at least worth KP, because my stupid drones spawned off a Devil fish are officially worth a KP.

The rest I think is a legit question. 

[Chase]

The invite roster has been updated.  It's shaping up VERY well, with only 1 person of the original 32 not being able to make it. 

Competition should be fierce.

[Benjamin]

I presented the Termagant questions to Sam, and asked him to consider Chaos Spawn / Daemon Princes as well.

[Sam]

Spawned termagants will count for Victory Points and such, using the baseline cost in the codex. NOVA went that way, which is good enough for me.

CSM models turning into spawn and such from Chaos Boons aren't counted as killed until they actually die, so that's easy. In that case, they keep their normal VPs until slain. The Daemon version, where you turn an opponent into a spawn, is murkier. They have no VP cost (since the FAQ knocked that out), so you can't have the spawn be worth anything after that. So I'd rule that they give VPs and KPs as if killed when they first mutate and change ownership, and are worth no VPs after that (though they can give up a KP if killed a second time).

[keithb]

Spawned termagants will count for Victory Points and such, using the baseline cost in the codex. NOVA went that way, which is good enough for me.

CSM models turning into spawn and such from Chaos Boons aren't counted as killed until they actually die, so that's easy. In that case, they keep their normal VPs until slain. The Daemon version, where you turn an opponent into a spawn, is murkier. They have no VP cost (since the FAQ knocked that out), so you can't have the spawn be worth anything after that. So I'd rule that they give VPs and KPs as if killed when they first mutate and change ownership, and are worth no VPs after that (though they can give up a KP if killed a second time).

I really have to disagree Sam, if creating a new unit is worth VPs for Tyranids, why is it not the case for Chaos?

1) you can't ever "untransform" something, so it is basically dead, but in turning your lord into a demon or spawn, I agree, it is more of a buff/debuff in terms of in game effect.

2) If I kill one of your models, and it creates a new unit for me, it 100% should be worth KP and VP.  Why would it not be?

[Loranus]

The Chaos Spawn is optional to put on the table from the Daemon Codex though. If you have the model you can replace it.

I think Sam. is saying that the Killed Model is worth a KP and/or VP and the Spawn it spawns is not worth anything.

Example: Boon on my Space Marine Captain. He Fails becomes a Spawn Daemon player gets 100 VP and the KP for it but if I kill the Chaos Spawn model it is worth no VP or KP for me.

[Benjamin]

Yo dawg, what if I boon the spawn that you from a boon? And then you boon it back?

[Ian Mulligan]

I feel like turning a chaos spawn into a chaos spawn would be like crossing the beams.

[keithb]

The Chaos Spawn is optional to put on the table from the Daemon Codex though. If you have the model you can replace it.

I think Sam. is saying that the Killed Model is worth a KP and/or VP and the Spawn it spawns is not worth anything.

Example: Boon on my Space Marine Captain. He Fails becomes a Spawn Daemon player gets 100 VP and the KP for it but if I kill the Chaos Spawn model it is worth no VP or KP for me.

Yes, that is exactly what he is saying.  I am disagreeing with it.   Creating a new unit should either be worth VPs or not, Regardless of the book used.

[Benjamin]

It applies to the case where Chaos champions (or whatever) roll on the table to become either a Daemon Prince or Spawn. The Champion isn't killed. It's simply transformed. When the transformed model finally dies, then award VPs equal to the original unit's cost.

[Sir_Prometheus]

Yeah....I fail to see the conflict here.  There is a pretty clear difference between a transformed model and a newly created one. 

[keithb]

So I'd rule that they give VPs and KPs as if killed when they first mutate and change ownership, and are worth no VPs after that (though they can give up a KP if killed a second time).

This would imply the power you can turn an enemy into a spawn.  Or is that no longer possible?

[Benjamin]

So I'd rule that they give VPs and KPs as if killed when they first mutate and change ownership, and are worth no VPs after that (though they can give up a KP if killed a second time).

This would imply the power you can turn an enemy into a spawn.  Or is that no longer possible?

Boon of Mutation is still a thing in the Daemon codex, if that's what you're asking.

[Sam]

Clarification:

In the CSM codex, you can turn one of your own guys into a spawn or a daemon prince. In this case, they're still under your control, so you haven't really lost them. If such models are killed by your opponent later in the game, they are worth whatever victory points they were worth originally, before transformation.

In the Chaos Daemons codex, you can turn an opponent's model into a spawn (which is then under your control). When transformed, the model counts as slain, and immediately grants its Victory Points (per its point total on the army list). The resulting spawn under your control is worth no further Victory Points (as spawn do not have a points cost in the Daemon codex), but it is worth a Kill Point in any mission that keeps track of such things.

You're free to disagree, Keith, but I can't assign a VP total to a unit that doesn't have a points cost in that codex. Different codexes, different rules, different outcomes.

[Benjamin]

There wouldn't have been a tournament or an Invitational without an awesome community. Thanks to everyone who participated! This will happen again, once the timing is figured out between this and all the other awesome 40k events in the works.