GD Australia and IA/Forgeworld units at touraments

[MM3791]

Are we going to start allowing IA/Forgeworld units in regular tournaments? It seems like a lot more fliers, tanks, and infantry would be available to add more flavor and balance to certain armies and it would also boost Battleground sales. Also the developers look down on people that disallow IA units ;P see link

http://collegiatitanica.blogspot.com.au/2012/09/games-day-australia-2012.html

[andalucien]

I strongly wish that FW units were allowed in BG tourneys.

Frontline Gaming (major tournament organizer in California) are allowing FW in all of their tourneys now, including the next Bay Area Open.   

And! Game On, major gaming store in Rhode Island, is allowing it for the next tourney, hehe.

[MM3791]

Agreed, as of now my Eldar have to wait until the next codex until I get flyers, but with Forgeworld I can immediately get access to at least 2 different fighter fliers and one bomber. This doesn't include more tanks and infantry. The same holds true for other codexes too.

[Loranus]

Most of BG tournaments this year have been for the Qualifier and has excluded FW. This is something that I may see being a disagreement since we moved into 6th but keeping stuff consistent I think would be the best.

Don't get me wrong some of the Forgeworld stuff I would love to mess around with. Predator Infernus and Storm Eagle for Salamanders but it costs tons of money which isn't available to all players.

[hudhouse]

They make a point, if you bring in lets say Necron Pylons, the tau Manta carrier, the Imperical gaurd titans, and the orks gagantuian squagoth, THIS WILL BE INTERESTING!

I want, to see, a battle of this porportions, in a tournament, and now that i think about it, what if we did a massive game? Apocalipse Forge world systle?

[Benjamin]

Are we going to start allowing IA/Forgeworld units in regular tournaments? It seems like a lot more fliers, tanks, and infantry would be available to add more flavor and balance to certain armies and it would also boost Battleground sales. Also the developers look down on people that disallow IA units ;P see link

http://collegiatitanica.blogspot.com.au/2012/09/games-day-australia-2012.html

We can take this point by point.

BG Plainville has allowed FW units for certain events. (FW models are almost always allowed where appropriate.) The last Trios tournament allowed certain FW units, from IA2 I believe. But why not for more "competitive" events?

Flavor, sure. I'm on board with flavor.

Balance, almost certainly not. For every super cool thing your old codex gets, a newer codex is also getting a super cool thing. The codices are still going to have inherent imbalances. That logic also doesn't account for the units themselves being "experimental" and potentially game-unbalancing.

Battleground does not sell Forgeworld models, so I just don't see how BG sales would be boosted. Because people are overpaying for Forgeworld resin, suddenly they'll come up with more money to spend on their army at BG?

The developers also look down on competitive Warhammer. So there's that.

Also, if tournaments allowed FW models, Sam would have to know FW rules.

I'd find a way to bring Aetaos'rau'keres and you have to ask yourself if it was worth it.

Oops, now I might be late for work!

[the_trooper]

BG Plainville has allowed FW for certain events. The last Trios tournament allowed certain FW models, from IA2 I believe. But why not for more "competitive" events?

Flavor, sure. I'm on board with flavor.

Balance, almost certainly not. For every super cool thing your old codex gets, a newer codex is also getting a super cool thing. The codices are still going to have inherent imbalances. That logic also doesn't account for the units themselves being "experimental" and potentially game-unbalancing.

CSM have no ranged AA outside of the quad gun scenery or allies.  Hellblades and Helltalons are not game breaking and well, are not good when compared to Storm ravens and Vendettas. I've pretty much stayed away from the tournament scene for a long time now and it happens to coincide with the age of my codex and the level of competition.  I'm all up for a good fight but not to be puppy stomped. Throw in a plague hulk and a blight drone and suddenly I can hang a lot more now that I have some AA and a walker than can show it's face outside of a building.

Battleground does not sell Forgeworld models, so I just don't see how BG sales would be boosted. Because people are overpaying for Forgeworld resin, suddenly they'll come up with more money to spend on their army at BG?

Ok, good point.

The developers also look down on competitive Warhammer. So there's that.

So does GW.

Also, if tournaments allowed FW models, Sam would have to know FW rules.

Sam likes to read.

I'd find a way to bring Aetaos'rau'keres and you have to ask yourself if it was worth it.

I'll bring An'ggrath.  BRING IT ON!

Oops, now I might be late for work!

Fair, me too.

EDIT:
The best argument I have heard from the anti forgeworld at tournaments crowd is this:  A lack of accessibility to some players as mentioned in this thread and hinted at by you.

At the same time, the argument loses steam and I would like to point you to the Vendetta (FW only) and Hydra (FW only). Also, one could argue the Chaos Dreadnoughts are also inaccessible to non-FW players.  So unless you are "modelling to advantage" by just being a good enough converter to build the previous, you had to tap FW for the models / parts.

Maybe there should just be the same rule as Privateer Press where as if the official model isn't officially released, it cannot be used.

[Grimwulfe]

My opinion is approved for 40k FW models would be workable however it comes with a few hurdles that make it very difficult.

1.  Availability of the rules, BG cant buy the books unless they go through FW and they are expensive as all hell
2.  Communities willingness to learn a new set of rules that come with FW
3.  BG has one of the bigger Competative communities with multiple people attending nationwide GTs as well as travelers that travel well over 2-3 hours to play with us.  FW isnt allowed at these major events so it makes sense that at the more competative events BG follows suit.

BG in the past has allowed FW and I dont see that changing but I also dont think it is appropriate for every tourny he runs.  What I would like to see however for the tournies that they do allow FW to allow all Approved 40k models.  This would add a wider variety to those events.  And allow people to play with the full range of NON Super Heavy FW models.

Keeping the events seperated is a good call not only for BG but also for the community.  As BG is made up of several factions BG is put into a situation where it has to appease as many people as it can and not alienate anyone in the process.  So far i believe they have done a very good job and as 6th shapes up I am sure we will see a more balanced approach to balancing those different factions. 

[andalucien]

1.  Availability of the rules & cost :  I don't think the vast majority of the people that play in BG tourneys own EVERY regular codex.  People tend to buy only the codexes they are interested in playing, and the learn the rules of other armies by other means (playing against them, borrowing a friend's book, or the internet).  I don't see how this is fundamentally different from FW models - buy the books that have rules for models you want to use, and just kind of absorb the other rules in the same way you absorb rules for other armies now.

2.  Yeah, if the community doesn't get behind it, it won't happen.  But that's what this thread is   Let's try to get more people behind it

3. Actually, ForgeWorld IS starting to be allowed at large GT's.  As I mentioned, Frontline gaming is allowing it... they run several GT's in California and are talking about throwing a huge one in Vegas.

[Mad Dok Rob]

Some of the IA stuff is really well costed and fits in on the power scale, but some IA is stuff is ridiculously powerful for the cost...and from what I have seen, the stuff on that end of the power scale is on the imperial side much of the time.  Maybe it is something to look at on a unit by unit basis.

Personally, I loved IA8 since it filled many of the holes in the Ork Codex without going overboard (in my opinion).

As for the cost, scratch building the stuff can take care of that.  Of course, Orks make it easy.

[andalucien]

Mad Dok, what do you feel is ridiculously undercosted?   IMHO, with the advent of Hull Points, it's tough for any vehicle to dominate anymore - and most of the FW imperial stuff is large tanks.  The Land Raider achilles is actually pretty terrible now for its cost.

I guess if we saw an AV14 flyer, THAT could still prove problematic and hard to kill like ... but there isn't one.

[the_trooper]

FW has always done the rule of cool and been higher cost than normal. Way more than normal.

[keithb]

I tend to think Forgeworld 40k approved models/rules are fine.  There may be a few select items that are "undercosted", but overall that is no different than regular GW books.

[Grimwulfe]

1.  Availability of the rules & cost :  I don't think the vast majority of the people that play in BG tourneys own EVERY regular codex.  People tend to buy only the codexes they are interested in playing, and the learn the rules of other armies by other means (playing against them, borrowing a friend's book, or the internet).  I don't see how this is fundamentally different from FW models - buy the books that have rules for models you want to use, and just kind of absorb the other rules in the same way you absorb rules for other armies now.

2.  Yeah, if the community doesn't get behind it, it won't happen.  But that's what this thread is   Let's try to get more people behind it

3. Actually, ForgeWorld IS starting to be allowed at large GT's.  As I mentioned, Frontline gaming is allowing it... they run several GT's in California and are talking about throwing a huge one in Vegas.

This is my point to a degree.

1.  I agree 100% its not easy to absorb the rules when they are presented to you.  However I feel cost should never play a factor in deciding if rules are legal.

2.  I think you missed my point here what I was saying is that the BG sommunity is split to a degree there are those that love FW and there are those (Competative GT players) that do not simply for the reason that MOST major GT's dont use FW.  To be fair with BG has to do they will need to tailor there tournies and do some with FW and some without.  As I stated in 6th I am sure we will see this deveLoping more and more as the new edition playes out.

3.  One or 2 tournies does make a pattern and WEST coast is VERY different then EAST coast.

[the_trooper]

The GT aspect is something I haven't fully considered but it makes sense given Chase's drive to make BG able to host a GT.

So I will pray to the dark gods that the GTs start to adopt FW more widespread then.