Author Topic: The Problem with Psychic Disciplines and Rulebook powers in 6th Edition 40k  (Read 2669 times)

Sir_Prometheus

  • God
  • *****
  • Posts: 1573
    • Email
From my blog: http://prometheusatwar.com/2012/08/the-problem-with-psychic-disciplines-and-rulebook-powers-in-6th-edition-40k-2

So everybody having fun with your new psychic powers out of the main 6th ed rulebook? They’re fun, right? You got them basically for free, and they’re shiny, new, interesting, and fun to try out. Fun is important. This is a game, and we play it for fun, so if that’s your only concern, this in’t really the article for you. If you’re the kind of player who plays orks because you get to roll on lots of tables, roll big handfuls of dice, and shout “waagh!!!!!!!!” at least once a game, then the basic rulebook powers are exactly what you’re looking for. The real problem is that from a competitive standpoint, they suck. They A) mostly aren’t very good (with the exception Divination) B) aren’t even vaguely balanced (as illustrated by everyone talking about Divination). I’m going to start with some facts, some stats, some major points of discussion, and then go into more depth from there. We”ll go into this in more detail later, but to start the conversation off, the main problems with the powers are:

Randomness, far more random than for spell lores in Warhammer Fantasy. Most 40K psykers only have 1 or 2 powers, while fantasy wizards can have anywhere from 1-4. Additionally, fantasy wizards get to choose whenever they roll the same power twice — 40k psykers just have to roll again. Games Workshop, as a company, clearly does not appreciate how un-fun randomness is for many players.


Multiple points of failure: First you have to roll to cast it, then often to hit, there’s a deny the witch roll, and often additional defenses beyond that (Grey Knights, Eldar, Space Wolves, and Tyranids. Necrons have a small defense you’re unlikely to see. SW can layer 3 different types of defenses, if you read the rules liberally! Great rules writing again, GW!)
.

Utter lack of balance. Some powers are great nearly all the time. Some are awful. Many are great, but only in specific situations. Which you have absolutely no chance to plan for, because you will at best only get the power you want 50% of the time! Disciplines that have a good Primaris Power (the only really good one is for Divination) are clearly favored over the others
.

Warp Charge and Psyker Mastery Levels. The vast majority of psykers in the game are Level 1. It’s all fine and good to formalize the process for determining how many powers (including force weapons) you can cast a turn, but Warp Charge 2 powers are distributed among the disciplines in a very haphazard way. There are four warp charge 2 powers (two of which suck) but two disciplines don’t get any and one gets two (and those are the only good ones). If you decided you needed a “second level” of powers, wouldn’t it make sense to make sure that each discipline got one each? They seem to have been randomly judged and assigned levels by completely different person after they were written.


Wild inconsistency in how you defend against spells. Is there anyone who thinks rune weapons remaining the same while psychic hoods were drastically nerfed wasn’t an oversight? I doubt many people begrudge Tyranids their Shadow of the Warp, but while it certainly makes sense for Eldar to have powerful and sophisticated anti-psyker methods, doesn’t everyone agree the “whole board” is a bit much?


Primaris Powers. Or rather, the fact that because selecting powers is random, and cannot be planned for, a discipline’s worth is primarily determined by how good the Primaris Power is.



Some basic stats that are important for a discussion of psykers and psychic powers in 40K:

From my blog: http://prometheusatwar.com/2012/08/the-problem-with-psychic-disciplines-in-6th-edition-40k/

A normal psyker has a 1/18th chance of suffering a perils of the warp. (1/36 of double 1′s, 1/36 of double 6′s =2/36=1/18) This is, just to give you a feeling, the same odds that a marine will kill himself with one shot of plasma. (1/6*1/3=1/18)


Chance of passing Leadership 10 (i.e., successfully casting your power, to start) is 91%. This is the leadership of basically all psykers that are worth talking about.


Chance to pass ld 9 is 82.7%. Aside from primaris psykers for IG, there are barely any psykers with ld 9. Grey Knight Justicars are (and the squads are often ld 8) but that’s a little outside this discussion. (Ooo! Dark Angel Librarians. Which are clearly a relic. Does anybody take those? Didn’t think so.)


Chance to pass Ld 8 is 71.7%. This really only comes up for weird things like henchmen psykers (which are stupid cheap for what they do, so few complain) and GK techmarin
e.


Chance to hit Ld 5 is 27.5%. Bonus pts for figuring out why that matters. (it’s what you need to pick the model you want with a focused witchfire) Basically we’re talking about double the normal chance of a precision shot, that’s it.



There are, just so you know, exactly three kinds of powers. No, not witchfire’s, blessings, novas, et al.. The three types of powers you need to worry about are Buffs, debuffs, and Damage.

continue reading » http://prometheusatwar.com/2012/08/the-problem-with-psychic-disciplines-and-rulebook-powers-in-6th-edition-40k-2

Please read the rest on my blog, not because this is a plug (well yes, that too) but because it's fairly long, and a pain to format correctly on this forum.

Sir_Prometheus

  • God
  • *****
  • Posts: 1573
    • Email
Nothing, no comment at all? 

Librarian

  • Heroic Tier Level 8
  • **
  • Posts: 285
    • Email
no sorry I read it at work yesterday and didnt have any time.

I agree with most of this really the two big isseus are terrible powers (which are a hold over from the fears of 2ed when lone librarians slaughtered whole forest moons during the psychic phase really most powers should be moderately better than weapons of a similar type the flamer power should just be winds of chaos wounds on 4+ no armor or cover allowed, perhaps glances vehicles on a 4+ pens on a 6, exc)

the other big one is that no power should have to roll to hit, between needing a successful leadership test and deny the witch you have pleanty of protection, hell during the mega battle about 1/4 of my powers where denied and the rest just did far less than I wanted them too, is it too much to ask to roll a 3-4 and keep lighting claw termies from attacking me, but no they have to go and attack eachother once.

I doubt it will happen but I hope the powers in the chaos codex are good.

Sir_Prometheus

  • God
  • *****
  • Posts: 1573
    • Email
I'd really be quite ok with shooting powers not needing to roll to hit....it actually wouldn't quite make them equal with normal weapons, mostly, but it would help. 

Mad Dok Rob

  • Paragon Tier Level 16
  • ***
  • Posts: 564
  • Da Orks are Da Best
    • http://fingerpaintingwitharchimedes.blogspot.com/
    • Email
If you’re the kind of player who plays orks because you get to roll on lots of tables, roll big handfuls of dice, and shout “waagh!!!!!!!!” at least once a game,

You say that like it is almost a bad thing....
http://fingerpaintingwitharchimedes.blogspot.com/

Warhammer 40k
6,914 pts Waaagh Dakkagut (Goff Orks)
4,913 pts Dark Angels 

Warmachine   
     183 pts Protectorate of Menoth

Sir_Prometheus

  • God
  • *****
  • Posts: 1573
    • Email
If you’re the kind of player who plays orks because you get to roll on lots of tables, roll big handfuls of dice, and shout “waagh!!!!!!!!” at least once a game,

You say that like it is almost a bad thing....

Well, it's not my thing.  But no, there's nothing wrong with that at all.  But seriously, there is a certain sub-character who likes randomness for randoms sake, just roll dice and see what happens.  I would really prefer they keep that out of the game more generally. 

Benjamin

  • God
  • *****
  • Posts: 2610
    • Email
I am a certain sub-character who likes randomness for random's sake, just rolling dice to see what happens. I would really prefer they put as much of that into the game more generally.

I'm serious.

Sir_Prometheus

  • God
  • *****
  • Posts: 1573
    • Email
Ok, well, we all have to live in the same game, right?

May I ask why, Benjamin (and Robert, and whoever else feels that way), you prefer randomness in your games? 

Not the garden variety, roll a bunch of dice, statistics comes into play randomness, but the big, bold, we roll on a chart, and that changes the whole way the game is played randomness? 

Seth

  • Heroic Tier Level 10
  • **
  • Posts: 345
    • Email
Because War IS random and can not always be planned for.
those who win every battle are not really skillful- those who render others' armies helpless without fighting are the best of all.  ~Master Sun Tzu

Ian Mulligan

  • God
  • *****
  • Posts: 1730
  • Egotistical Powergamer
    • Mutants and Shit
    • Email
Makes people take it less seriously.


Wait. I mean, its supposed to make people take it less seriously.
beep bop boop

Benjamin

  • God
  • *****
  • Posts: 2610
    • Email
The game right now doesn't know what it wants to be. Some rules are hard and fast, others are random. Assault length is random, shooting distance is not. Do we have agreed upon rules, or not? Can't even agree on that, so we roll a 4+.

If I had my druthers, I'd sooner take a wild, roiling board of "WTF??" than a strategic game of chess. When statistics break, hearts break.

It's also how I view the 40k universe. Whatever works of Man may be, there is always Chaos underneath it all. It bothers me greatly that Perils of the Warp simply does a wound, when it's really the perfect opportunity for the most unpredictable, improbable moments of triumph or defeat.

Off the top of my head, without pausing. Take a wound that ignores armor and cover saves. If the model survives, roll a d6.

1 - Whoops! You're a Chaos spawn, bro.
2 - Character takes a -1 to all stats for the rest of the game. This may drop Wounds to 0.
3 - Character scatters 2d6 inches, treat as Deep Striking.
4 - Character has a +1 to all stats for the rest of the game.
5 - Character has a 2+ invulnerable save for the rest of the game.
6 - Bloodthirster! Enters play under player's control, with number of wounds equal to the character's model.

Probably better as a 2d6 table, but hey, I want to do other stuff at the moment. :)

Mad Dok Rob

  • Paragon Tier Level 16
  • ***
  • Posts: 564
  • Da Orks are Da Best
    • http://fingerpaintingwitharchimedes.blogspot.com/
    • Email
May I ask why, Benjamin (and Robert, and whoever else feels that way), you prefer randomness in your games? 

Well, I don't play in tournaments (but maybe some day I will enroll in one to beat Ben to the bottom of the pile) and I don't play necessarily power armies (granted Orks are better in a different way in 6th and DA are getting a new codex) so I don't really care about winning.  Most of my games end in a tie anyway, I just want to kill stuff and see stuff go boom.  There is a reason I play my Orks more than my Ravenwing.  The only time I don't like the game is when all my stuff dies without me killing anything...which is why GK are frustrating a lot of the times for me to play against.

Random tables are just fun, well, some of them.  The Shok Attak Gun is the perfect table.  It goes from Total Suck to Total Awesome.  I wish all tables were like that.  It is the second edition Wand of Wonder ported into W40K.

Random effects keep the game from getting stale.  As long as they are done right, see SAG.

http://fingerpaintingwitharchimedes.blogspot.com/

Warhammer 40k
6,914 pts Waaagh Dakkagut (Goff Orks)
4,913 pts Dark Angels 

Warmachine   
     183 pts Protectorate of Menoth

PhoenixFire

  • Epic Tier Level 30
  • ****
  • Posts: 1049
Randomness of the dice roll? Sure fine

Randomness with objectives, mysterious forests? Sure whatever

Randomness of warlord traits? Eh... this is where it starts getting silly for me, yes some are great and a huge boost and some are garbage

Randomness of psychic powers? Makes no sense to me, you have to give up your base psychic powers for random ones that may or may not be of benefit to your army or current army list. The primaris power helps a little with this, but still in a game BUILT for customization and tweaking to the nth degree this is the exact opposite of the whole theme. I dont know why 6th has so many randomization aspects.

I like call of duty and the like specificly because of the amount of customization options, i dont like the shooting games with generic premade characters

If i wanted a random tabletop wargame i wouldnt be playing 40k

Sir_Prometheus

  • God
  • *****
  • Posts: 1573
    • Email
The game right now doesn't know what it wants to be. Some rules are hard and fast, others are random. Assault length is random, shooting distance is not. Do we have agreed upon rules, or not? Can't even agree on that, so we roll a 4+.

Well, I certainly agree with that.  Certain parts of the rulebook look like they were written by completely different people who didn't communicate too well (and lacked a proper style guide), and other parts look to be copy pasted from 5th edition without thought to how that fit in 6th, nor the fact that many people found those same paragraphs unclear x years ago......

Oh, wait, that's exactly what happened. 

Quote
If I had my druthers, I'd sooner take a wild, roiling board of "WTF??" than a strategic game of chess. When statistics break, hearts break.

It's also how I view the 40k universe. Whatever works of Man may be, there is always Chaos underneath it all. It bothers me greatly that Perils of the Warp simply does a wound, when it's really the perfect opportunity for the most unpredictable, improbable moments of triumph or defeat.

Off the top of my head, without pausing. Take a wound that ignores armor and cover saves. If the model survives, roll a d6.

1 - Whoops! You're a Chaos spawn, bro.
2 - Character takes a -1 to all stats for the rest of the game. This may drop Wounds to 0.
3 - Character scatters 2d6 inches, treat as Deep Striking.
4 - Character has a +1 to all stats for the rest of the game.
5 - Character has a 2+ invulnerable save for the rest of the game.
6 - Bloodthirster! Enters play under player's control, with number of wounds equal to the character's model.

Probably better as a 2d6 table, but hey, I want to do other stuff at the moment. :)
[/quote]

I could actually get behind that table for perils......perils is uncommon enough it's just funny to see what happens.




Se now, for me, an occasional statistic anomaly can be the source of great comedic effect....("my Firewarrior punked out your Tervigon....what?") but it's very important that it be the exception, rather than the rule. 

To me, warmachine is the epitome of how a rule set should be written.  Not that rule set specifically, but the ethos and clarity behind it.

I am basically looking for chess...yes, with just enough randomness that the players can't be sure how things will turn out.  You obviously need some randomness, otherwise it's basically impossible to balance unsymmetrical forces, and it very quickly becomes what they call a "solved game".  But that randomness doesn't have to be very random, actually.

And as soon as things become very random, then the game becomes less a game and more just a specatator sport.  You're not really involved in the game and your skill level doesn't have much to do with who wins....you're just rolling dice and seeing what happens.  I don't really consider roulette or craps a game...you're just betting on things that may or may not happen.

If I have to roll on a d6 table before each and every game, and if I get a 6 that means I am very likely to win and if I get a 1 I am very likely to lose....that takes a heck of a lot of the enjoyment out of it for me.  It means my experience and my decisions has less and less to do with the outcome. 

I don't like it for warlord traits, don't like it for psyker powers.  Don't even especially love the d3 for grand strategy, or the make it or break nature of psychotroke grenades (I have a theory about psychotroke greandes, that they're just there to make everyone unhappy).  If I was a DE player, wouldn't really like combat drugs. 

Sir_Prometheus

  • God
  • *****
  • Posts: 1573
    • Email
Randomness of the dice roll? Sure fine

Randomness with objectives, mysterious forests? Sure whatever

Randomness of warlord traits? Eh... this is where it starts getting silly for me, yes some are great and a huge boost and some are garbage

Randomness of psychic powers? Makes no sense to me, you have to give up your base psychic powers for random ones that may or may not be of benefit to your army or current army list. The primaris power helps a little with this, but still in a game BUILT for customization and tweaking to the nth degree this is the exact opposite of the whole theme. I dont know why 6th has so many randomization aspects.

I like call of duty and the like specificly because of the amount of customization options, i dont like the shooting games with generic premade characters

If i wanted a random tabletop wargame i wouldnt be playing 40k

Sure, sure, I get that....it's not me, but I do get it.  And that's why orks are the way they are, that's why they exist.

But I don't feel it has much place in the game system generally.