Author Topic: Third installment in GK unit by unit analysis  (Read 1208 times)

Sir_Prometheus

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Third installment in GK unit by unit analysis
« on: July 24, 2012, 06:25:58 PM »

 http://prometheusatwar.com/2012/07/6th-ed-and-grey-knights-part-3-a-unit-by-unit-analysis-and-tactica/

So, continuting my series from last week (Parts One and Two) I wanted to continute the discussion of how 6th edition affects Grey Knights.  On to Fast Attack!

 

Stormraven

Upsides of 6th:

Flyers are broken (at the moment), didjya hear?  Seriously, it's messed up, but there is almost nothing more important than how many Flyers you can bring in 6th edition
The Stormraven is quite tough for a flyer.
It has a lot of guns, and can be given a fair bit of variety to it's guns\
It is also a transport, with an assault ramp no less
If you're worried about it crashing with your dudes inside, they can always jump out the back
Downsides of 6th:

It's quite expensive, the most expensive flyer by far.
Using it as a transport is much harder in this edition
Dual Gunship/Transport function means you are wasting some of it's capacity now.
Total Change: +3 (but with reservations).  Well, like I said, it's a big, tough, expensive flyer, and right now flyer's are broken, so there you are.  That's where most of the bonuses come from.  However, general flyer brokeness aside, I have reservations about it.

It's use as a transport has changed massively.  I used to load Draigo and 400 pts of Paladins in the thing and basically shoot it right at the enemy.  It'd get to shoot exactly 1 gun (the Multi-melta) and then the enemy would almost universally shoot it down in 1 turn.  But, they used nearly their entire army to do it, and then Draigo  and Pallies climbed out of the wreckage less than 12" from the enemy, nearly always a win condition.

But that won't work anymore.  Yes, the Stormraven will be even harder to kill than before.  But if they do kill it?  All those Paladins are going to take Str 10 AP 2 hits.  Draigo will survive that, but no one else will.  Are you going to risk that?  Yeah, it requires the enemy to get lucky with some 6's, but what seasoned player hasn't seen that?  The enemy gets a 6 and then a 6 and then 6, and 1/2 your army is gone.  It's statistically unlikely, but still a gynormous risk you can't take.  And what if they have a flyer?

Your other option is to jump out the back, which can still be horribly risky, but much less so if you have a servoskull or enough open space.  But what does that get you?  You're likely much further from the enemy, and you're going to get shot up for a turn.

And of course, if you don't use it to transport something, you're wasting a large chunk of the points you spent on it.

The standard load-out I think has changed.  I used to go with Multi-Melta and lascannon formation as making the most sense, but with new 6th ed rules (ability to fire 4 weapons) the Hurricane bolters with psybolts might make more sense, and of course if you're going to do that then you want to use the assault cannon (psycannon) instead.  This will let you mess-up other flyers (most of whom are AV 10-11) really well.

Still, do I wish we had a simpler, cheaper, air-superiority fighter?  Yeah, I do.

Interceptors

Upsides of 6th:

Hammer of Wrath, obviously.
Generally speaking, mobility is key.  It allows you to determine who takes all the wounds.
Downsides of 6th:

Have I mentioned yet, all the extra dakka we're going to see in 6th?
Total Change: +1  OK, obviously jump infantry got a much needed boost in 6th ed.  But, Interceptors always felt too delicate to me for their heavy points cost.  Has that really changed?  Actually, it's probably gotten worse.  There's just going to be a lot more bolter shells and such zipping around now.  You need some highly mobile elements in your list (and with a Grand Master, scoring) but I think I'd rather get mine in other ways.  We'll see.

PhoenixFire

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Re: Third installment in GK unit by unit analysis
« Reply #1 on: July 24, 2012, 06:50:41 PM »
I never used a stormraven in my 5e lists, preferred to use all tanks, now i pretty much have to.

Another downside you didnt mention of using the stormraven as a transport is since all flyers have to start in reserve whatever unit you have embarked on there may not show up until turn 3 or 4. If your using Draigo or a grand master (and imo you should) you have the slight advantage of -1 +1 on reserve rolls.

While forcing flyers to start in reserve impacts all armies with flying transports it is especially important to GK players whose units cost a large percentage of your army.

I don't want to wait until turn 3 or 4 for my purifiers to show up, nevermind spending HALF my army cost in Paladins only to have them absent for most of the game... and then there's the point Prometheus brought up about your shiny troops getting blown up.

I've got a new stormraven assembled and ready to go... but i think i will be using it to combat enemy flyers, not transport
« Last Edit: July 24, 2012, 06:53:10 PM by PhoenixFire »

Sir_Prometheus

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Re: Third installment in GK unit by unit analysis
« Reply #2 on: July 25, 2012, 02:53:37 AM »
Right.  Which means you're spending maybe 50-60 pts on transport capacity you're not using.

keithb

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Re: Third installment in GK unit by unit analysis
« Reply #3 on: July 25, 2012, 10:57:37 AM »
So... basically almost everything in the book got a +something,  So are GK better overall in your opinion?

Sir_Prometheus

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Re: Third installment in GK unit by unit analysis
« Reply #4 on: July 25, 2012, 11:07:08 AM »
Well, as I said in the first article in the series, most things (aside from rhinos) got "better" in 6th.  So then it becomes hard to tell because it's all relative. 

Grey Knights got some neat little gifts in 6th, but I don't think we got as much as as Orks, Tyranids, or even vanilla space marines (with the new morale rules, basic combat tactics is so freaking awesome).

Grey Knights are still quite good, but definitely not the top codex anymore. (necrons)  As to exactly where they rank, I don't know yet. 

keithb

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Re: Third installment in GK unit by unit analysis
« Reply #5 on: July 25, 2012, 12:08:51 PM »
I would think that would have to go into your overall analysis of each unit then, i mean power swords being AP3 hurts,  The game being deadlier hurts as the point cost for most units is high...

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Re: Third installment in GK unit by unit analysis
« Reply #6 on: July 25, 2012, 12:36:41 PM »

Grey Knights got some neat little gifts in 6th, but I don't think we got as much as as Orks, Tyranids, or even vanilla space marines (with the new morale rules, basic combat tactics is so freaking awesome).


GK were so far ahead of Orks and Tyranids already.  GK are still way far ahead of Orks...but we are now 2 editions out of date....some day we will catch up.  The amount of psy-magic you can throw around couple with the no real weakness in the army still makes GK a very tough nut to crack.

Necrons are definitely the top right now, but GK are not that far behind.  Actually, as an Ork, I would rather play against Necrons than GK (mind you, I do not run any MegaNobz so my opinion might be different from other Ork players).
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andalucien

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Re: Third installment in GK unit by unit analysis
« Reply #7 on: July 25, 2012, 01:07:00 PM »
I think it's way too early to say where GK's fall in the rankings, or even to say that Necrons are definitely the top dawg now.  I'm also not sure whether these type of codex "tiers" even mean anything anymore, what with allies and all.   Some armies might make really good allies but only be good "main armies" in cahoots with some other specific ally, etc.   
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Sir_Prometheus

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Re: Third installment in GK unit by unit analysis
« Reply #8 on: July 25, 2012, 01:16:25 PM »
So first of all, it would be great if all the codexes were more less aroudn the same power, and everyone was competitive, right?  I kinda doubt that happened, but I do think it got closer.

Orks btw, were doing fine all through 5th.  GK were good against them and still are (for reasons that had more to do with storm bolters and cleansing flame than GK being overall "broken) but they were winning tournaments the whole time, and had 3 different builds that worked great.

And Robert, Orks got a HUGE boost in 6th.  It's except for the slight increase in diffculty of getting off early, easy charges, almost every single change benefited them hugely.  Lootas are possibly the best shooting unit in the game right now.  You even have a great dogfighter!  Not that you need it with lootas.  Nobs are great.  Powerclaws are great.  30 fearless boyz are better than ever.

I'd be willing to bet Orks are the second best codex now, behind Necrons.  And they'd probably beat necrons directly, so........

And tyranids......I'm prepared to say they're better than GK, but they're certainly a hell of a lot better by comparison.  Graham beat me with his tyranids for the fist time in years, and I play much more often than he does.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2012, 01:27:51 PM by Sir_Prometheus »

Mad Dok Rob

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Re: Third installment in GK unit by unit analysis
« Reply #9 on: July 25, 2012, 08:15:02 PM »
So first of all, it would be great if all the codexes were more less aroudn the same power, and everyone was competitive, right?  I kinda doubt that happened, but I do think it got closer.


That would be awesome.

And Robert, Orks got a HUGE boost in 6th.  It's except for the slight increase in diffculty of getting off early, easy charges, almost every single change benefited them hugely.  Lootas are possibly the best shooting unit in the game right now.  You even have a great dogfighter!  Not that you need it with lootas.  Nobs are great.  Powerclaws are great.  30 fearless boyz are better than ever.

Orks got a boost, but I still don't know how huge it is.  Boyz are much more fragile now and assaults are a dicey affair, and I know they are dicey for everyone, but with overwatch Orks get hit really hard with a failed charge (since we get basically no armour save).  The nerf to cover save and KFF most definitely did not benefit Orks.  Changes in fleet and the Waagh and multi-assualt hurt assault based Ork armies a good deal.  No assualt out of reserves killed Snikrot as a useable model.  And we do not get to play with all the new magic stuff that GKs (and Tyranids, I didn't know every model was a magic user) can throw around like crazy.

I agree about lootas.  They are the best shooting unit in the game.  And DakkaJets are awesome (until AV13 flyers start showing up).

Orks in 6th got a nice boost.  They are a much better primary shooting army then they are an assault army.  I do look forward to some plastic MegaNobz, which should help against GK.

GK versus Orks are interesting though.  Super elite vs Super cheap.  Codex-wise, y'all are still in better shape than us, but we will get another codex some day.  And until then, we are still the most fun army to play.

oh yeah sorry, i didn't mean to hijack your thread
« Last Edit: July 25, 2012, 08:33:57 PM by Robert Camp »
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Mike_k

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Re: Third installment in GK unit by unit analysis
« Reply #10 on: July 27, 2012, 10:38:42 AM »
Grey knights are not better than Orks, especially orks with allies. Orks volume of cheap shooting combined with numbers, durability and the pure awesomeness of nob bikers makes them a very likely top tier army.

I feel like GK took some major hits. What scaled well into the new edition to me is not really +'s. Our shooting didn't improve it just got better as did all shooting in the new edition, and other armies it made their shooting much more on par with ours (although out storm bolters are still boss). Our beloved purifiers no longer can deal with deathstar units in any capacity especially Terminator armored ones (probably rightfully so). Same for DCA unless you go the lame model sword/axe route which I just dont like the idea of it, but I encourage DCA users to do what works for them.

We had probably the best all around vehicle pool in the game but the general nerf to vehicles is a big hit to a codex that did mech armies to an extraordinary level.

Paladins I do feel got a very large boost and do what they did in 5th only better, much better in fact.

Thanks for the overall analysis Matt was an enjoyable read
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Sir_Prometheus

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Re: Third installment in GK unit by unit analysis
« Reply #11 on: July 27, 2012, 11:14:48 AM »
You're welcome.  #4 (heavies) will be out sometime today.

I don't think it's that bad, I think GK are still in the top 4.  The real thing that's saving us is psybolts, I think. 

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Re: Third installment in GK unit by unit analysis
« Reply #12 on: July 30, 2012, 08:52:42 PM »
Well to me its Necrons IG Orks as the top three all around armies. Orks and IG do well against Necrons but necrons do REALLY well against everyone else.

I feel GK are in a perpetual stalemate with about 3-4 other books at the top of that second tier of armies paladins, coteaz, and psybolt being our three best assets. I still think Wolves are a better army than GK and will not require much army changing to still be competitive in 6th and are the best marine based army until my beloved DA get their dex in the next 6 months then well see.

Also with Chaos close who knows how that will reshape the landscape being the first full release of 6th. Ahriman supposedly craps on all psykers (as he should)

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Sir_Prometheus

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Re: Third installment in GK unit by unit analysis
« Reply #13 on: July 31, 2012, 12:14:49 AM »
GK>SW. Pretty easily actually, at least in 5th. Haven't fought them in 6th,  but it doesn't seem much has changed, except we have a native flyer and they don't.

keithb

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Re: Third installment in GK unit by unit analysis
« Reply #14 on: July 31, 2012, 05:40:41 PM »
GK was just the flavor of the month(year) towards the end of 40k.  Doesn't mean they were actually stronger than SW.

I think it is still IG/Necrons/SW.  Orks got better, but I don't think they are top 3.   GK are still solid.