Author Topic: So for anyone interested, Doing something of a plus/minus tactic on GK in 6th  (Read 1518 times)

Sir_Prometheus

  • God
  • *****
  • Posts: 1573
    • Email
My blog post is here:  http://prometheusatwar.com/2012/07/6th-edition-40…is-and-tactica/

But here's the starting excerpt:

So……6th edition.  I thought I’d make my first post, in just about a year, with it, but I wanted the time to digest some of what is coming out of it. I have lots of thing to say about 6th edition itself, but I wanted to discuss the effects on various GK units more, merely because that is so high at the top of my mind.  I think there’s no where else to start but the top.

Generally:  Grey Knights were generally considered at the top of the heap at the close of 5th.  Personally, I think Necrons were probably right up there with them, but I think this fact was in general underappreciated–mostly due to Necrons needing a fair bit of finesse and synergy between units, while GK units tend to be a lot more general purpose, self-sufficient, and of course they’re marines (they didn’t use to be, dammit!) which makes them a fair bit  fail-proof. Well, that’s gone now, at least to a degree.  Which is good!  Grey Knights certainly got their boosts in 6th, but so did most other codexes, some to a far larger degree than GK.  Again, I say this is good.  I’m sure there are some power gamers out there who want their “I win” button (it was never really there) but personally, I get tired of people assuming I’m beating them just because I brought Grey Knights.  I think most players are similar.

General Upsides of 6th for GK:

Psychic powers are far more important now, and Grey Knights have a ton of psykers, and possibly the  most powerful on average, in the game.  Only a few models can switch out their power for basic rule book powers, but it’s still more than most armies get.
Massive nerf to psychic hoods means that GK will get their powers off far more often. Most of our native powers are buffs, meaning Deny The Witch and Psychic Hoods are inapplicable.
Conversely, we’re now one of the best psychic defended armies in the game.  Because of how Deny The Witch works, a GK unit (not henchmen) will almost always get a 5+ save against powers, very often 4+ (if they include a Psychic Mastery level 2 IC, which is going to happen a lot), and this is on top of The Aegis. That’s pretty powerful, and unlikely to change through FAQs or new codexes (which you should expect with Space Wolves and Eldar, eventually)
Generally speaking infantry Dakka is much more important, and Grey Knights, particularly Strike Squads, are really good at Dakka.
General Downsides of 6th for GK:
Fortitude is much weaker now.  This is part of the general nerf to vehicles, but we had really good vehicles, and Fortitude was a little broken.  Still, the change hurts us more than some others.
You no longer win the shooting match quite as definitively with rapid firers like Tac Squads, as they can at least hit you at the same range, and are much cheaper.
So, that sounds like a much larger upside to downside, but keep in mind almost everyone else got a similar list.  Much was given in 6th, very little (besides vehicles was taken away).
So let’s look at it unit by unit, shall we?  We’ll start with Troops.
 

keithb

  • Epic Tier Level 24
  • ****
  • Posts: 811
I’m sure there are some power gamers out there who want their “I win” button (it was never really there) but personally, I get tired of people assuming I’m beating them just because I brought Grey Knights.  I think most players are similar.

Win with not grey knights, then people don't say anything, esp if you do it with tau.

Sir_Prometheus

  • God
  • *****
  • Posts: 1573
    • Email
Oh, I'll be whipping out the Tau.  But they'll probably be allied in various ways, since Tau still have some big holes. 

Also, and this is not a small factor, my GK are pretties and I like the shiny.  I painted my Tau like what, 7, 8 years ago?  When did 4th come out?  It was right after that, I think.  I sucked at painting then. 

They'll get repainted and pretty based, but I probably won't feel insipred to do so until the new codex comes out.  Maybe the Tau flyer will make me want to go after it. 


Ed

  • Epic Tier Level 27
  • ****
  • Posts: 905
  • "No, but have you hearda' Magic?"
To long didn't read

andalucien

  • God
  • *****
  • Posts: 1180
You may be selling the Vindicare a little short.  One of the big problems with him is that if he's being enough of a pain, it's real easy for nearly any opponent to focus on him and take him out in a turn.  Another problem was that it was sometimes tough to find a spot on the board that was both well protected and gave him a good view of the battlefield.

But now you can buy Bastions.  I played against a Space Wolf army that allied in GK's.  He had a bastion and put the vindicare alone inside the bastion.   That was quite annoying.  It becomes very difficult to actually stop him from shooting when he's in his 75 point AV14 bunker.    I could see a Vindicare in a Bastion being an MVP against an army that was particularly vulnerable to him, like someone with multiple land raiders.
Name:  Matthew Forsyth
Club:  Errybody in the gettin tips
Where I play: basically I only show up for tourneys or when I'm on my way up to New Hampshire to visit my folks.  I live about 45 mins from both stores, to the south.

PhoenixFire

  • Epic Tier Level 30
  • ****
  • Posts: 1049
You may be selling the Vindicare a little short.  One of the big problems with him is that if he's being enough of a pain, it's real easy for nearly any opponent to focus on him and take him out in a turn.  Another problem was that it was sometimes tough to find a spot on the board that was both well protected and gave him a good view of the battlefield.

But now you can buy Bastions.  I played against a Space Wolf army that allied in GK's.  He had a bastion and put the vindicare alone inside the bastion.   That was quite annoying.  It becomes very difficult to actually stop him from shooting when he's in his 75 point AV14 bunker.    I could see a Vindicare in a Bastion being an MVP against an army that was particularly vulnerable to him, like someone with multiple land raiders.

i like that idea, i tried running a Vindicare the other day to see how he did in 6th... and he died first turn to a flying MC before he even got a shot off. But your bastion idea would certainly make him a hell of an annoyance

Sir_Prometheus

  • God
  • *****
  • Posts: 1573
    • Email
I mean, it's an idea.  Main problem being that if someone penetrates the Bastion, the vindicare will take a ton of dmg (Have you looked that the chart?  things like 4d6 str 6 wounds!).  It's certainly a lot tougher than on his own. 

But then my main objection is cost.  We're talking about 220 pts, here.  You could buy a Storm Raven, just to be a gun platform for that!  Now, do you think he'll do more dmg than a SR would?

PhoenixFire

  • Epic Tier Level 30
  • ****
  • Posts: 1049
I mean, it's an idea.  Main problem being that if someone penetrates the Bastion, the vindicare will take a ton of dmg (Have you looked that the chart?  things like 4d6 str 6 wounds!).  It's certainly a lot tougher than on his own. 

But then my main objection is cost.  We're talking about 220 pts, here.  You could buy a Storm Raven, just to be a gun platform for that!  Now, do you think he'll do more dmg than a SR would?

He certainly wont bring as much firepower to the table as a stormraven, but if someone wants to use a vindicare because they really want the ability to snipe ICs or take down a kustom force field, etc, etc, etc 75 points for av 14 i would say is worth it

Using that same logic with the new double force org above 2k it opens up previous unconsidered possibilites that before were not a viable choice because it took up a valuable heavy support slot. Like say for instance put a purgation squad with 4 psycannons in an av14 bastion and play around with astral aim


Sir_Prometheus

  • God
  • *****
  • Posts: 1573
    • Email
if someone wants to use a vindicare because they really want the ability to snipe ICs

Well, that's the problem, they still get a Look out Sir! on a 2+.  That in addition to the fact you are either only wounding half the time or doing 1 wound.  Makes him fairly useless for that purpose.

Quote
Using that same logic with the new double force org above 2k it opens up previous unconsidered possibilites that before were not a viable choice because it took up a valuable heavy support slot. Like say for instance put a purgation squad with 4 psycannons in an av14 bastion and play around with astral aim

I think purgation squads are awesome and under utilized, but I wouldn't put them in a Bastion.  Only 24" range means they'll only be used for defense there.  Also, astral aim does not work and has no interaction with the Bastion.  Astral aim is pretty useless, honestly, and you pay twice as much on psycannons for the privilege.  The best thing about Purgations is that you can get incinerators for free, get them 4 to a 5 man squad, and you can buy a teleport homer for 5pts for the justicar (little known fact). 

Also, I'll reiterate something I've said elsewhere...I don't think double FOC helps GK much.  The main limitation I see is points, not slots. 

PhoenixFire

  • Epic Tier Level 30
  • ****
  • Posts: 1049
your right about the range, it would certainly be a defensive set up which could certainly have it's uses depending on placement and mission objectives. and i meant using astral aim for anything the enemy was hiding behind, but as you pointed out it would only be within 24 inches... astral aim may actually be worse now since cover saves got worse and not better that unmodifed 4+ could be a liability

i'm still of the mind that an av14 bunker with firing points for 75pts has huge tactical implications... just need to find the best mix of things to use with it

Sir_Prometheus

  • God
  • *****
  • Posts: 1573
    • Email
Well, you can put Jokaero in there (but any dmg to the building will kill them quickly).

Personally, eventually, I'll be putting in Tau Broadsides. 

Astral aim wasn't even good in 5th.  How often exactly, is a unit within 24" but completely out of LOS?  It's cute on Hive Guard, but their ability is more powerful, and I'm pretty sure people would take it without it. 

andalucien

  • God
  • *****
  • Posts: 1180
Getting hit with 4d6 str 6 hits definily hurts (and that's how I eventually got rid of the guy in my game, I charged a bloodthirster at the building and "blew the house down").  But it doesn't hurt as much as taking however many lascannon shots / other str 9 or 10 hits directly to the face.

I agree that buying a Bastion with no plan for it other than to make your Vindicare viable, leaves the whole schmeal at 220 points a bad investment.

But the Bastion does a lot more than that.  The squad on the roof gets a 3+ cover save and can fire an anti-aircraft gun, if you buy one.   And it's also completely LOS blocking for a large area behind the bastion, and  3+ cover save for anything that wants to peek out around the sides... even a Psyfleman or something like that.
Name:  Matthew Forsyth
Club:  Errybody in the gettin tips
Where I play: basically I only show up for tourneys or when I'm on my way up to New Hampshire to visit my folks.  I live about 45 mins from both stores, to the south.

Sir_Prometheus

  • God
  • *****
  • Posts: 1573
    • Email
Where are you getting the 3+ save from?  I'd think it would be 4+.

andalucien

  • God
  • *****
  • Posts: 1180
Page 18 of the rulebook, where it lists which types of terrain give which cover saves.  Fortifications give a 3+.   Bastions are about as fortification as it gets.

Name:  Matthew Forsyth
Club:  Errybody in the gettin tips
Where I play: basically I only show up for tourneys or when I'm on my way up to New Hampshire to visit my folks.  I live about 45 mins from both stores, to the south.