Author Topic: Double Force Org at 2000+ Points?  (Read 5805 times)

Chase

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Re: Double Force Org at 2000+ Points?
« Reply #90 on: July 15, 2012, 05:02:03 AM »
The first BG event at 2000ish points is a long way off.  Jan 2013 at the absolute earliest (and definitely do not count on that).

The Feast of Blades event is shaping up to have very low attendance.  I wonder what that's a function of (if it's beyond the obvious).
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Sir_Prometheus

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Re: Double Force Org at 2000+ Points?
« Reply #91 on: July 15, 2012, 02:10:47 PM »
The first BG event at 2000ish points is a long way off.  Jan 2013 at the absolute earliest (and definitely do not count on that).

The Feast of Blades event is shaping up to have very low attendance.  I wonder what that's a function of (if it's beyond the obvious).

Honestly, my suspicion is flyers.  Flyers are shaping up to be A Problem.  If someone brings 6-9 flyers (really only IG and Necrons can do this) it just does not look like that can be fought in any meaningful way.

It is pretty clear that it is GWs intention to fix this in some way.......in a few months (like 6), after everyone has gone and bought their flyers for competitive play.  I don't know how interested players are in that, generally.

Now, there are a few different ways to fix this.  The heavy-handed way would be to say you can only bring x flyers.  A more elegant solution might be something like making objectives that are "skyfire nexuses" like from the book. 

PhoenixFire

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Re: Double Force Org at 2000+ Points?
« Reply #92 on: July 15, 2012, 02:37:50 PM »
The first BG event at 2000ish points is a long way off.  Jan 2013 at the absolute earliest (and definitely do not count on that).

The Feast of Blades event is shaping up to have very low attendance.  I wonder what that's a function of (if it's beyond the obvious).

Honestly, my suspicion is flyers.  Flyers are shaping up to be A Problem.  If someone brings 6-9 flyers (really only IG and Necrons can do this) it just does not look like that can be fought in any meaningful way.

It is pretty clear that it is GWs intention to fix this in some way.......in a few months (like 6), after everyone has gone and bought their flyers for competitive play.  I don't know how interested players are in that, generally.

Now, there are a few different ways to fix this.  The heavy-handed way would be to say you can only bring x flyers.  A more elegant solution might be something like making objectives that are "skyfire nexuses" like from the book.



I'm still interested to see how they are going to FAQ flakk missiles, giving them free (or even as a cheap points upgrade) will allow preety much all the space marines chapters, IG, and probably chaos SM another option to deal with flyers.

That still leaves xenos a bit out in the cold, with their only options being taking an allied detachment, a flyer (which some codexs still dont have although i heard rumors of a tau flyer soon) or fortifications which again some xenos cant use.

Rons necron aegis defense line was pretty cool looking however


Sir_Prometheus

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Re: Double Force Org at 2000+ Points?
« Reply #93 on: July 15, 2012, 02:58:34 PM »
Yeah, the problem is, I think tht FAQ will come super conveniently after everyone has bought flyers already.

We have the marketing dept driving rules here. 

Loranus

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Re: Double Force Org at 2000+ Points?
« Reply #94 on: July 15, 2012, 03:06:19 PM »
I think we will see an FAQ in about Late August Early September to coincide with the release of the Starter Set and possibly the New CSM or Dark Angels Codex. I think Games Workshop is going release the Flakk Missiles in the new Codex and then FAQ it then. They Know its going to do the job from testing they just don't know how much it should cost.
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Sir_Prometheus

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Re: Double Force Org at 2000+ Points?
« Reply #95 on: July 15, 2012, 03:13:11 PM »
I would think all the point values for something 1-2 months out is already set.  It's probably at the printers already.

andalucien

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Re: Double Force Org at 2000+ Points?
« Reply #96 on: July 15, 2012, 09:21:12 PM »
The flyer issue does worry me a bit (IF GW doesn't do anything about it), but I doubt it will be much of an issue for the August 4th tournament.   How many people will have already bought and assembled 5 or 6 vendettas and /or scythes in response to  the 6th edition rules?   That takes some serious bank, a serious time commitment, and a desire to win really quick before skyfire weapons make it into the game.   I bet you'll get at most 1 or 2 armies like that.   

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Benjamin

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Re: Double Force Org at 2000+ Points?
« Reply #97 on: July 15, 2012, 09:33:29 PM »
That takes some serious bank, a serious time commitment, and a desire to win really quick before skyfire weapons make it into the game.   I bet you'll get at most 1 or 2 armies like that.
I agree with the first statement.

But I think you underestimate the competitive player's bank, commitment and desire to win. I would set the over/under higher, based on attendance. I'll guess 1 out of every 6 players.

Sir_Prometheus

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Re: Double Force Org at 2000+ Points?
« Reply #98 on: July 15, 2012, 10:10:58 PM »
This is not really about the Aug 4th tournament, because that's feast of blades, and outside BG's control. 

I think a lot of IG players already have 3 vendettas, maybe more.  I know Mike has 3 Storm Ravens.  Ben apparently has 3 nightscythes and 3 doomscythes ready to go.

I like to think I'm a competitive player, but I don't want to buy 2 more SRs just so I feel like I have a chance.  I hope that's not viewed as some sort of laziness or inflexibility on my part. 

Partly it's that this is clearly a ploy by GW to sell flyers, and I'd be playing right into that.  About the time I got them fully painted, GW would suddenly FAQ in all these skyfire rules (to save their otherwise crashing game).  Partly it's that my one SR takes up most of my carrying case as it is, I don't want to haul around more.  And partly, its that3 SRs isn't really enough, anyway.  Both Necron and IG flyers are cheaper and better AA fighters for the most part. 

So, what is the answer, otherwise?  How do we fix it, so tournaments (post Feast) don't simply become a game of who brought more flyers? 

Banosby

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Re: Double Force Org at 2000+ Points?
« Reply #99 on: July 16, 2012, 12:03:23 AM »
Whatever else we may think, I'm sure we can all agree on one thing, which is that Bill is a complete and utter ass. To wit:

1. He has been repeatedly referenced in this thread as the 'the guy to beat at Plainville'. Why he feel the need to pay people to say this about him is beyond me, but facts are facts.

2. While I was away, he went ahead and said what I was going to say and, to add insult to injury, was all reasonable about it. But, in an effort to undermine his tyranny, I'm going to say it again, because god knows I love to read myself type.

Doubling the force org slot is bad for at least two reasons (which isn't to say that we shouldn't use the double force-org; rules are rules and all that).

A. Allowing a double force-org allows for more powerful armies. It doesn't need to be the case that any of these armies are broken (although I suspect that there may be some), but an increase in the power level of possible armies will increase the differential between the maximally powerful armies and the average armies. There will always be people who, for one legitimate reason or another (I like the fluff of this army, this was the army I spent 100 hours painting, I've always been a Sisters player), and the less they get stomped by the guy with the tweaked out list, the better. Tournaments, like it or not, (and I like it) are partially populated by those who, in addition to winning, have other concerns. There isn't any reason to give them a bigger handicap than they've given themselves. To put this point another way, the more you increase the potential power of lists, the more you decrease the ability of people to win with substandard lists by being superior generals. The degree to which games should be decided by generalship skills as opposed to list-building skills is an entirely subjective thing, and I rather like that list-building is part of the game, but in my terribly humble opinion, it is already a big enough part of the game.

B. Whether or not one thinks that a double force organization chart allows for more powerful lists, it certainly allows for more one-sided lists, particularly one-sided lists that people will think (perhaps erroneously) are good. I have no doubt that at double force org tournaments, we'll see 17 Razorbacks and 6 Riflemen and god knows how many Vendettas. Now these lists may not be good, so they may not win tournaments, but that doesn't mean they can't lose tournaments for their opponents. Having a balanced list requires you to be able to take all comers, and by widening the pool of possible comers, particularly in imbalanced ways, makes it harder to have a balanced list and makes it easier to lose to a weird army simply because it isn't something that you could possibly have planned for. In fifth, I always had to make sure I had a plan for the 5 LR army and the Orc Horde and all the other odd lists you see. I don't relish the fact that the list of weird opponents I might face has gotten so much longer.

keithb

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Re: Double Force Org at 2000+ Points?
« Reply #100 on: July 16, 2012, 09:48:42 AM »
Whatever else we may think, I'm sure we can all agree on one thing, which is that Bill is a complete and utter ass. To wit:

This.

Now these lists may not be good, so they may not win tournaments, but that doesn't mean they can't lose tournaments for their opponents. Having a balanced list requires you to be able to take all comers, and by widening the pool of possible comers, particularly in imbalanced ways, makes it harder to have a balanced list and makes it easier to lose to a weird army simply because it isn't something that you could possibly have planned for. In fifth, I always had to make sure I had a plan for the 5 LR army and the Orc Horde and all the other odd lists you see. I don't relish the fact that the list of weird opponents I might face has gotten so much longer.

Also, this.  bolded for emphasis.   This is exactly what I have been trying to say the whole time.  Double FOC increases the number of "extreme" or "mismatch" type builds you can make.  I for one don't like taking a look at my opponents army list and feeling like it is game over.

Sir_Prometheus

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Re: Double Force Org at 2000+ Points?
« Reply #101 on: July 16, 2012, 09:56:29 AM »
Once again, people take 6 Flyers or so, which IG and Necrons can already do, you're already there. 

keithb

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Re: Double Force Org at 2000+ Points?
« Reply #102 on: July 16, 2012, 11:39:07 AM »
Once again, people take 6 Flyers or so, which IG and Necrons can already do, you're already there.

Well, lets make sure that Other extreme builds get in so the older books get extra double screwed.


So, just to be clear your argument here is "It's already bad, so might as well make it worse"?

Sir_Prometheus

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Re: Double Force Org at 2000+ Points?
« Reply #103 on: July 16, 2012, 11:49:14 AM »
"it doesn't matter if it's worse"

Also, I think 6-9 flyrs is about all they can fit in by points, anyway.  So I don't think adding a second org chart really helps them.

6 doomscythes is 1050 by itself.  I don't forsee any players doing that, even if given the freedom to do so, but I might take two aegis lines with guns to shoot them.

Anyway, I don't really want to talk about double FOC anymore, I want to talk about flyers and how to fix them. 

Achillius

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Re: Double Force Org at 2000+ Points?
« Reply #104 on: July 16, 2012, 11:51:07 AM »
I don't relish the fact that the list of weird opponents I might face has gotten so much longer.

I did read that whole post, but this last statment caught I think the crux of the issue. Today the lists you all have to learn to beat by heart are relatively small, now they could be insane :)

I could be wrong and change my mind a year from now, but frankly I love the idea of a double FO, I've hopes that it will get rid of the same lists popping up all over, and exponentially (with allies) increases the number of competitive lists out there. As for being a superior general, I'm hoping that will be even more important!

We'll see in the long run, how it works out.

Cheers,
Alan
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