Double Force Org at 2000+ Points?

[keithb]

I don't get it. 

WIth 2 FOC I could field 6 LRs, but I'm not going to, I run out of pts, and good things to put in the LRs.  I can field 3 LRs now, but I don't. Can field 6 Dreadnoughts now, but don't.

You say you run out of pts before you run out of FOC.  Ok, so it sounds like we're in a similar situation.

So here's the thing.....why do you care then?  If a second FOC is effectively unusable at 2000 just because it's not enough pts, then what is the problem?  Null change.

Me running out of points =/= everyone else running out of points,  besides who said you have to take 6 land raiders?  Double FOC help point efficient armies, Like IG, Like henchmen Grey knights.  Like Long Fangs' R uss.   

Do I really need to explain this?

All of my decent heavies are 210-265 points,  you can get TWO dreads for that. or two long fang squads.  You are already better.  Doubling FOC just makes the armies with cost effective choices even MOAR better.

this argument is completely mute as nothing forces you to play games at any point value, and if TOs want to run events at < 2000 points, then none of this matters.  It also looks like that is exactly what they want to do.

For record, I'd call GK "good" and "powerful", I wouldn't call them points efficient.

I don't think you need to explain it to me, so much as I disagree. 

I'm pretty sure there are a LOT of tyranid players out there who would like more than 9 Hivegaurd, or a mix of huveguard and zoanthropes, just the flexibility to take anything besides Hivegaurd in their Elite slots, which most feel they don't have the flexibility to do so.

You may have a different playstyle.  I certainly don't play my GK the way most people do.  But I do know there's a lot of demand among tyranid players for loosened restrictions around the Elites section. 

Tau it's great too.  Currently you basically can't take Sniper drones, even though they're cheap, cuz it's a Heavy slot, but with 6 slots.....yeah, that's cool.

Take henchmen. Then GK are plenty efficient.

ok, so I can take more hive guard, cool.  sounds good.  That would be fine if several armies didn't also get more options.  Better options.

I actually think Tyranids are going to be better down at like 1500 points.  But what do I know, I just play the army.

[Sir_Prometheus]

Sure the double force org will come in handy if i really need that extra heavy or fast attack slot, and i can think of tons of unbalanced options like Keiths mention of Coteaz and Psyrifle spam or an imperial guard flying circus of non-squadroned Vendettas, etc, etc.

Acolyte/razorspam lost in 5ht, it will lose much harder in 6th.  GK can already take 6 psyflemen, they don't that's my whole point.  In fact, only a few people take 3, even.  I take one.

Squadrons have very few disadvantages now, so nothing's stopping people from taking 9 with 1 FOC. 

So basically all these examples are null.



If you want to complain about GW trying to sell models, complain about flyers, and the attached requirement to take Fortifications.  I DO  But the double FOC thing.....I totally fail to see the problem. 

[Chase]

I think it's very premature to say that things aren't fun or that this new system isn't good or good enough.


Here's a fact:  No one has any / enough experience playing at 2000pts under the new rules.  No one is qualified to evaluate how lists will interact, how the meta will look, if the game will be fun to play, or if the game will have balance.


The double Force Org is a huge change and will have dramatic effects on how people fill out their points.  To say it's bad, stupid, doesn't work, is imbalanced, or isn't any fun without playing it extensively is a mistake and equivalent to the "fire and brimstone" we always see at the onset of a new edition, rulebook, Magic set, or any significant product release.

To change an event around to preserve its "predictability" is fine and safe.  I probably would have done the same thing if I had a million qualifiers and a giant GT coming up.  I was hoping we'd get a 2000 point event in "by the book" though.

[keithb]

Here's a fact:  No one has any / enough experience playing at 2000pts under the new rules.  No one is qualified to evaluate how lists will interact, how the meta will look, if the game will be fun to play, or if the game will have balance.

False.  Plenty of people saw the suck with Fantasy right away.

[keithb]

Sure the double force org will come in handy if i really need that extra heavy or fast attack slot, and i can think of tons of unbalanced options like Keiths mention of Coteaz and Psyrifle spam or an imperial guard flying circus of non-squadroned Vendettas, etc, etc.

Acolyte/razorspam lost in 5ht, it will lose much harder in 6th.  GK can already take 6 psyflemen, they don't that's my whole point.  In fact, only a few people take 3, even.  I take one.

Squadrons have very few disadvantages now, so nothing's stopping people from taking 9 with 1 FOC. 

So basically all these examples are null.



If you want to complain about GW trying to sell models, complain about flyers, and the attached requirement to take Fortifications.  I DO  But the double FOC thing.....I totally fail to see the problem.

Plenty of Henchman spam lists did VERY well in 5th.  In fact more than one GT was won with them within the last year.  So you might want to get your facts strait.

It isn't just about GK and dreads  Matt.   I never said 12 dreads is the best evar!!!

I am far more concerned with Guard as they are still incredibly point efficent, and having more slots lets them De-squad some of their best vehicles, which is a HUGE advantage.

But no... keep talking about only GK, and only Dread spam, as if that is all that matters. It isn't just about my army or your army Matt.

But the bigger issue is that this IS NOT done to help balance out armies.  This is done to push people into slightly larger games, with more models they were currently maxed out on.  ESP the nice ones that just went up 25% in cost.

[MM3791]

If people want to take 6 squads of terminators then let them, they will have no points left for for decent scoring units. Most people won't even have the points to field 6 elites AND 6 heavys.. this is just a case of "everybody panic now" syndrome. I think a squad of terminators or Leman Russes are 500-600 points on their own.

Besides, 100 generic troops will beat 30 terminators by sheer volume of fire.

I'm looking forward to it.

[keithb]

who says they need 6 elite and 6 heavy, why not just 6 of the better one for that codex.  Also, what if terminators are their troops.

I think you've severely overcosted the leman russ's...

[Sir_Prometheus]

Sure the double force org will come in handy if i really need that extra heavy or fast attack slot, and i can think of tons of unbalanced options like Keiths mention of Coteaz and Psyrifle spam or an imperial guard flying circus of non-squadroned Vendettas, etc, etc.

Acolyte/razorspam lost in 5ht, it will lose much harder in 6th.  GK can already take 6 psyflemen, they don't that's my whole point.  In fact, only a few people take 3, even.  I take one.

Squadrons have very few disadvantages now, so nothing's stopping people from taking 9 with 1 FOC. 

So basically all these examples are null.



If you want to complain about GW trying to sell models, complain about flyers, and the attached requirement to take Fortifications.  I DO  But the double FOC thing.....I totally fail to see the problem.

Plenty of Henchman spam lists did VERY well in 5th.  In fact more than one GT was won with them within the last year.  So you might want to get your facts strait.

It isn't just about GK and dreads  Matt.   I never said 12 dreads is the best evar!!!

I am far more concerned with Guard as they are still incredibly point efficent, and having more slots lets them De-squad some of their best vehicles, which is a HUGE advantage.

But no... keep talking about only GK, and only Dread spam, as if that is all that matters. It isn't just about my army or your army Matt.

But the bigger issue is that this IS NOT done to help balance out armies.  This is done to push people into slightly larger games, with more models they were currently maxed out on.  ESP the nice ones that just went up 25% in cost.

Keith, I feel like you have something in a wad today.

I believe I have brought up examples, tyranids, IG, and Tau, in addition to GK, so why are you yelling at me?

Again, citing Guard as an example, I don't see the problem.  IG can already fit in everything they want.  Squadrons are simply not very limiting, and I don't see how 2 FOC make them any more or less broken than they are now. 

I share your distaste of GW making rules changes in order to sell models.  But.......if this is an example of it, I feel it is one of the less egregious.

[MM3791]

who says they need 6 elite and 6 heavy, why not just 6 of the better one for that codex.  Also, what if terminators are their troops.

I think you've severely overcosted the leman russ's...

It was just an example, but I'm pretty sure 3 Russ's with upgrades are around 500 points(150pts/model if I remember correctly).

I believe that your also under estimating the greater dynamic of strategic gameplay. Anything can look powerful on paper, but its how the battles are played out that will determine the difference between victory or defeat. 

[Benjamin]

To be clear, all the new rules are designed with the intention of selling more models. But that's not justification to criticize the rule as it is in-game.

1999+1 is lame. I get it, I understand why it makes sense to some people. Those some people are afraid, and it's very easy to put the toothpaste back in the tube after trying 2000 as intended. BG will at some point try a legit 2000 point tournament with the Double FOC, and we'll find out for ourselves.

[Sir_Prometheus]

To be clear, all the new rules are designed with the intention of selling more models. But that's not justification to criticize the rule as it is in-game.

1999+1 is lame. I get it, I understand why it makes sense to some people. Those some people are afraid, and it's very easy to put the toothpaste back in the tube after trying 2000 as intended. BG will at some point try a legit 2000 point tournament with the Double FOC, and we'll find out for ourselves.

This.

[keithb]

I just don't see why it is lame.  Double FOC is lame.  See what I did there?

[Logan007]

Actually, I think it might be a good way of balancing out people that don't take allied detachments at higher levels vs people that do.

Imo, yeah, having a double force org looks like you can make some pretty cheesey things, but at 2000 points, maybe that does a good job of limiting such things.

We should just hold a tournament and find out

[keithb]

Sure, I'll go spend 600$ to "try it out"

[PhoenixFire]

Actually, I think it might be a good way of balancing out people that don't take allied detachments at higher levels vs people that do.

Imo, yeah, having a double force org looks like you can make some pretty cheesey things, but at 2000 points, maybe that does a good job of limiting such things.

We should just hold a tournament and find out

You said it, i've been waiting all year for a 2k tournie at BG, but now with 6th edition... another month or two of
 people learning the rules would probably be a good thing for speed puposes... or all these 2 1/2hr games are going to end in round 3 lol.

Sure, I'll go spend 600$ to "try it out"

The only people who will get the MOST out of the double force org are...

A: people who have been in the hobby long enough to have lots of everything
B: people with lots of disposable income who will buy 5 more of x unit to only use a couple times a year
C: people with good friends who will loan them units theyre not currently using