Double Force Org at 2000+ Points?

[Typhus]

Due to an overwhelming response of "We aren't ready for double FOC," we have lowered the points of qualifiers to 1999+1 (no double FOC). Please see our main page for details.

yes, this means it is a 1999 point army, but you can be one point over

[Sir_Prometheus]

I'm personally disappointed in all this 1999+ stuff.  Nova too.  New edition has two FOC.  It's only there to help out the old codexes, really.  Deal with it!  Take the whole ruleset or just go back to playing 5th I say.  At least until you have enough experience with 6th to know what needs ditching (*cough* flyers), and that won't be for months.

[Chase]

I am not happy about the whole "1999+1" thing.

[keithb]

Why? 

Fantasy did the same thing almost no one plays with grand army rules EVER.

It is stupid, and a money grab.   Go buy more XXXX (unit that you have 3 of that is your best elite/heavy choice).

[keithb]

I'm personally disappointed in all this 1999+ stuff.  Nova too.  New edition has two FOC.  It's only there to help out the old codexes, really.  Deal with it!  Take the whole ruleset or just go back to playing 5th I say.  At least until you have enough experience with 6th to know what needs ditching (*cough* flyers), and that won't be for months.

You don't need a ton of games to see certain things are silly.  Also, why doesn't the FOC scale up, like 2000 points, add 1 to each FOC slot,  at 2500, add 1 more.... ETC.   Nope, just suddenly double it.  Why?  More money.

[Chase]

Why? 

It's new, it's different, and people should try new stuff when new rules come out?

I'll be VERY, VERY disappointed if 40k ends up having its ruleset entirely redesigned for the tournament scene like WHFB did.  That would be nothing short of tragic.

[Sir_Prometheus]

I'm personally disappointed in all this 1999+ stuff.  Nova too.  New edition has two FOC.  It's only there to help out the old codexes, really.  Deal with it!  Take the whole ruleset or just go back to playing 5th I say.  At least until you have enough experience with 6th to know what needs ditching (*cough* flyers), and that won't be for months.

You don't need a ton of games to see certain things are silly.  Also, why doesn't the FOC scale up, like 2000 points, add 1 to each FOC slot,  at 2500, add 1 more.... ETC.   Nope, just suddenly double it.  Why?  More money.

I dunno, Keith, it seems mostly designed to help YOUR army, Tyranids.  (helps Tau a lot too, but they get allies, so need it less)

I mean, all the list I've been designing so far look exactly the same.  Beyond cute stuff like putting random little cheap inquistors in different places, it's not helping GK out. 

[keithb]

I almost always run out of points before i run out of FOC.

Listen to yourself Matt, they did the Double FOC for all armies to help.... tyranids? Or to sell more models?

[keithb]

Why? 

It's new, it's different, and people should try new stuff when new rules come out?

I'll be VERY, VERY disappointed if 40k ends up having its ruleset entirely redesigned for the tournament scene like WHFB did.  That would be nothing short of tragic.

Why? WHFB is better now than it has been in a while.  We can do it better than GW does.  Why not do it.  They've proven over, and over, and over. That they cannot balance the game for competitive play.  It is a fun beer + pretzels game (and megabattles).  Did you really expect anything different?

Besides, no one is changing rules, TOs have so far decided that they want the point values to be smaller to avoid the double FOC. 

[Chase]

I strongly feel that the models people have or do not have should not influence how tournaments are run. 

Sure doubling the Force Org in bigger games is in some (many) respects is a stab in the direction of selling more models, but to not allow for it for due to this seems silly.


To claim "shenanigans" as an argument too, I think.  Here's a post from Dakka:

Now think about this boys and girls. 18 War Walkers, 18 KillaKans, 40 missile launcher longfangs, 4 Squads of thunderwolf calvary with wolf lords, 4 seer councils with a total of 40 bikes, 18 Broadsides. You can now bring Mephiston, sanginor, Belial, and Draigo all in the same list. You can bring 6 StormRavens. 60 Fire Dragons...Necrons can now bring like 20 armor13 vehices.....you can bring MSU armies with 12+ razorbacks...Dark Eldar can bring 20'ish venoms....IG can spam 18 Vandettas(with flier rules have fun rofl)......CSM can spam 18 Oblidorators...orks can bring like 8 battlewaggons....GK can bring 6 NDK's(I dont think this is killable with all the ap2 nerfs).....6 Landraiders..... Like my mind cant even comprehend all the stupid combinations that armies can now bring......seriously lol???

I have reason to believe that some of this isn't accurate but what I'm getting at is that plenty of armies seem like they can field "stupid" lists.  If everyone can do overpowered things, what's the issue?  In the end the person who plays best and has the best list for the event will end up winning.  To shoot things down before anyone has any relevant experience seems silly.


An example of what the NOVA TO is scared of is:  Coteaz, a basic inquisitor, 12 psybolt razorbacks, and 6 psybolt riflemen dreads - 1700 points.

If that's the "best list" I'm sure people will begin to game around it.  If it PROVES to be unbeatable or not beatable enough, then some adjustments need to be made.  Until then, let's see how the new ruleset works, as intended.

[keithb]

Sure chase. does that mean we need to play games of 2000+ points?  Nope.

What is the difference between 1999 and 2000 points?  Other than one point?  DOUBLE EVERYTHING.

As intended just means sell models.  Rather than just defaulting to thinking GW should be done as is, think about it yourself.  Does it seem like a balanced approach to scaling the game up?  Add one point, double everything.  Balance achieved.   

This isn't about what models people have/don't have.  It is about the game becoming silly.

the first major GT for 8th ed fantasy had a few things he wanted to change/restrict.  He did not do it.  He said he received more complaints that year than any other in 5+ about running the event.   The complaint, "It wasn't fun".  Which is basically how I feel about playing 8th ed out of the box. 

[Sir_Prometheus]

I don't get it. 

WIth 2 FOC I could field 6 LRs, but I'm not going to, I run out of pts, and good things to put in the LRs.  I can field 3 LRs now, but I don't. Can field 6 Dreadnoughts now, but don't.

You say you run out of pts before you run out of FOC.  Ok, so it sounds like we're in a similar situation.

So here's the thing.....why do you care then?  If a second FOC is effectively unusable at 2000 just because it's not enough pts, then what is the problem?  Null change. 

[keithb]

I don't get it. 

WIth 2 FOC I could field 6 LRs, but I'm not going to, I run out of pts, and good things to put in the LRs.  I can field 3 LRs now, but I don't. Can field 6 Dreadnoughts now, but don't.

You say you run out of pts before you run out of FOC.  Ok, so it sounds like we're in a similar situation.

So here's the thing.....why do you care then?  If a second FOC is effectively unusable at 2000 just because it's not enough pts, then what is the problem?  Null change.

Me running out of points =/= everyone else running out of points,  besides who said you have to take 6 land raiders?  Double FOC help point efficient armies, Like IG, Like henchmen Grey knights.  Like Long Fangs' R uss.   

Do I really need to explain this?

All of my decent heavies are 210-265 points,  you can get TWO dreads for that. or two long fang squads.  You are already better.  Doubling FOC just makes the armies with cost effective choices even MOAR better.

this argument is completely mute as nothing forces you to play games at any point value, and if TOs want to run events at < 2000 points, then none of this matters.  It also looks like that is exactly what they want to do.

[Sir_Prometheus]

I don't get it. 

WIth 2 FOC I could field 6 LRs, but I'm not going to, I run out of pts, and good things to put in the LRs.  I can field 3 LRs now, but I don't. Can field 6 Dreadnoughts now, but don't.

You say you run out of pts before you run out of FOC.  Ok, so it sounds like we're in a similar situation.

So here's the thing.....why do you care then?  If a second FOC is effectively unusable at 2000 just because it's not enough pts, then what is the problem?  Null change.

Me running out of points =/= everyone else running out of points,  besides who said you have to take 6 land raiders?  Double FOC help point efficient armies, Like IG, Like henchmen Grey knights.  Like Long Fangs' R uss.   

Do I really need to explain this?

All of my decent heavies are 210-265 points,  you can get TWO dreads for that. or two long fang squads.  You are already better.  Doubling FOC just makes the armies with cost effective choices even MOAR better.

this argument is completely mute as nothing forces you to play games at any point value, and if TOs want to run events at < 2000 points, then none of this matters.  It also looks like that is exactly what they want to do.

For record, I'd call GK "good" and "powerful", I wouldn't call them points efficient.

I don't think you need to explain it to me, so much as I disagree. 

I'm pretty sure there are a LOT of tyranid players out there who would like more than 9 Hivegaurd, or a mix of huveguard and zoanthropes, just the flexibility to take anything besides Hivegaurd in their Elite slots, which most feel they don't have the flexibility to do so.

You may have a different playstyle.  I certainly don't play my GK the way most people do.  But I do know there's a lot of demand among tyranid players for loosened restrictions around the Elites section. 

Tau it's great too.  Currently you basically can't take Sniper drones, even though they're cheap, cuz it's a Heavy slot, but with 6 slots.....yeah, that's cool. 

[PhoenixFire]

I almost always run out of points before i run out of FOC.

Listen to yourself Matt, they did the Double FOC for all armies to help.... tyranids? Or to sell more models?

this

I usually blow through my points before i use up all my force slots as well, and it's CLEARLY a ploy by GW to sell more models.

Sure the double force org will come in handy if i really need that extra heavy or fast attack slot, and i can think of tons of unbalanced options like Keiths mention of Coteaz and Psyrifle spam or an imperial guard flying circus of non-squadroned Vendettas, etc, etc.

Somebody made the argument in one of these threads of "hey, how about +1slot to everything at 1500 and +2 at 2000 and +3 at 2500" would this of been a better way to do it? absolutely, unfortunely GW wrote it the way they did and we are going to have to live with it for tournaments of 2000 or 2500. Feast of blades made their call on it for this one, Battleground usually follows what the GTs and Novas do so if they are going to adhear to double force org i suspect BG will as well

I can make some fun lists with the double force org, and yes GW is gonna lure me right into the quicksand because i'm going to have to buy some more models to do it, and if i find myself across the table from a ultimate bacon double force org cheese sandwich list at a tournament i may curse under my breath but hey, thems the brakes and its just a game.