Power Weapon and who can take what discussion

[Sir_Prometheus]

I think people really need to relax. A DCA is amazing in close combat against anything that's not a 2+ armor save. I mean really how many models have a 2+ armor save in the first place? Are you really afraid of pure termie lists? Im not. Plenty of answers for them and power weapons isnt one of them. Really go to CVS go get a tampon and call it a day.


What im confused on, are we not allowed to equip bits to represent a specific weapon any more? I have a Space marine Sarg with a power axe long before this came out. Is this model not illegal? I just need to know if i need to do a weapon swap.

You relax. Your entire second paragraph outlines the problem.  It's not about DCAs, it's about how the rule works.

For instance with the rule in place as I think it should, a DE wych sergeant (whatever they're called) can take plain power weapon instead of the agonizer, make it an axe, an be able to kill termies.

I wouldn't really worry about DCAs, btw. It takes basically all day to assault using rhinos now, and they tend to die in the sunlight. Basically unless someone's also taking a LR, you won't see them.

[Typhus]

As posted in the rules thread;

What kind of Power Weapon is a Burna?  Because the model doesn't come with one as sculpted on it.

The minute you tell me that the Orks can model an axe on the end of their flame thrower, all the arguments about DCA not being allowed to take one is null and void.

[andalucien]

Actually I can definitely see people wanting to take Axes or Lances on their Succubi & Archons (and all sorts of sergeants), because all of the cool expensive Dark Eldar combat weapons got hit with the AP3 bat.   

It's going to get fluffy in this paragraph, but I guess I'm sort of trying to flesh out the different considerations here.   Succubi are supposed to be these celebrities of the bloodthirsty Commorragh gladiatorial arena.   I'm sure that there are succubi who are experts in the Power Lance, Power Axe, Power Whip, Power Knitting Needle, Power Broom Handle, Power Scissors, and tons of other weapons that we have no words for.   It feels very arbitrary to say that because the one pose GW has produced for a Succubus happens to be holding a whip some sort of a pole arm, it means that we can't play Succubi with swords.   

[Sir_Prometheus]

I would Disagree on this point because Looking at this I can see the Advantages for a Space Marine Captain to take Both especially if he Takes a Bike. He would become a Very Heavy Assault Based Commander. Hammer of Wrath+ The Choice for extra AP and STR or the ability to go before  your Opponent With 5 Attacks on the Charge and an Automatic STR 4 hit for charging in after shooting the person in the face with 2 Bolter Shots. This coupled with a 3+ save, a 4+ Invuln, Toughness 5, and 3 wounds makes him a Severe threat to Anyone. You run the numbers and being 165 points is a Bargain compared to being restricted.

Here's the thing:  I actually think that is a great build, and exactly the sort of thing the new rule is meant to let you build.  SM captains have been under-utilized for a long time. But you can't do it, apparently, unless a SM Captain package comes with an axe (no idea).  Maybe you wanted to do a Maul and Axe?  Definitely can't do that. 

[Achillius]

Sam normally you do a pretty good of rules intervention, but here you are way off base. Not only are you ingnoring the RAW and adding in stipulations that are not in the book, but you have just made using power weapons way more complicated than it needs to be.

Your reasoning, MFA! An interesting concept, most often associated with modeling size and height for advantage, but is now being applied to valid weapon swaps. Giving a space marine sgt a combi-melta is modelling for advantage, but this is part of the hobby and allowed.  To get a combi melta on say a terminator sgt I have to scratch build one, or take one from another model. Both of which by these rulings are now no longer valid in Plainville tournaments.  Neither came with the original model and the second actually came in a different kit. How are we proposing to solve this?

We're looking at having to put together matrixes of what GW model has what weapon and what it must look like. Does that not begin to suggest that you are overthinking this?

If the rules provide the option (that nice expensive book we bought), then it is up to the player to represent this in a wysiwyg fashion, if you stick to that simple rule, you will save a hell of a lot of time and effort.

I'm done for now, I'll be playing RAW, my Black Templar castellean on a bike with an axe won't be apologizing for anything, and nor will the one in terminator armour, the bretheren using Space wolf power weapons will also stand tall, all 2 inches

As for DCA (i don't play them though they are cool models) having an axe and sword is cheesy, but its legal. I'll mock you if we play and you have that but I'll not lose sleep over it.

[keithb]

To try to argue that when GW says "look at the model", they mean, "look at the most recently released model/non special release model, games workshop only"  Is reading what you think GW intended to write. What if I have an old model I love, it is not longer illegal, or considered modeling for advantage?  Do I need to convert an old model?  Do I have to take the time to explain to all opponents, that it isn't really an axe, but a sword, or vice versa, because.....

Rules as written, it is the model you are putting on the table.  I don't think this is a huge problem in most cases.  But if you have any doubt, don't be that guy!

I also certainly think that if I have an independent character and buy him a power weapon, I should be able to model it however I want. 

[Sam]

I'm going to take Chase's advice and talk over the power weapon thing tonight. I'll post again either tonight or tomorrow night, and let you all know if my thinking has changed by then. Until than, play casual. I don't think we have any tournaments scheduled for the next 48 hours, so whatever your opponent agrees on is fine by me.

[Grand Master Steve]

I think people really need to relax. A DCA is amazing in close combat against anything that's not a 2+ armor save. I mean really how many models have a 2+ armor save in the first place? Are you really afraid of pure termie lists? Im not. Plenty of answers for them and power weapons isnt one of them. Really go to CVS go get a tampon and call it a day.


What im confused on, are we not allowed to equip bits to represent a specific weapon any more? I have a Space marine Sarg with a power axe long before this came out. Is this model not illegal? I just need to know if i need to do a weapon swap.

You relax. Your entire second paragraph outlines the problem.  It's not about DCAs, it's about how the rule works.

For instance with the rule in place as I think it should, a DE wych sergeant (whatever they're called) can take plain power weapon instead of the agonizer, make it an axe, an be able to kill termies.

I wouldn't really worry about DCAs, btw. It takes basically all day to assault using rhinos now, and they tend to die in the sunlight. Basically unless someone's also taking a LR, you won't see them.

no you relax. You seem to be the one getting upset over a game with plastic and pewter little men. Im going with Alan except one point. My models are very well painted and converted. To say I can not use a power axe on a Space marine Sargent is silly. My only disagreement with Alan is I know there is a chaplain model out there that has both the Crosarius and a power fist and a Dark Angels old model that had a Crosarius and a power sword. My models will be as they are and will Make sence which is ultimately I think the problem. DCAs with power axes just don't make seance to me. I think its case by case. If some one took a power axe from the marines bits  and attached it to a DCA then I would have a problem.

[Sir_Prometheus]

I wasn't terribly upset.  But I don't terribly enjoy being told to calm down (when I tell my wife to calm down, she hits me....and she does not hit like a girl) because the insinuation is it doesn't matter.  Well, of course it doesn't matter, it IS a game, right?  But it matters a proportional amount to the time, energy and thought we spend on this hobby, which is frankly, a fair bit.

It is, in essence, the trivializing of an opposing position. 

[keithb]

I wasn't terribly upset.  But I don't terribly enjoy being told to calm down (when I tell my wife to calm down, she hits me....and she does not hit like a girl) because the insinuation is it doesn't matter.  Well, of course it doesn't matter, it IS a game, right?  But it matters a proportional amount to the time, energy and thought we spend on this hobby, which is frankly, a fair bit.

It is, in essence, the trivializing of an opposing position.

He said "I think people need to relax"  He didn't say "Matt calm down".  You are over-reacting to his comment.

[Logan007]

I wasn't terribly upset.  But I don't terribly enjoy being told to calm down (when I tell my wife to calm down, she hits me....and she does not hit like a girl) because the insinuation is it doesn't matter.  Well, of course it doesn't matter, it IS a game, right?  But it matters a proportional amount to the time, energy and thought we spend on this hobby, which is frankly, a fair bit.

It is, in essence, the trivializing of an opposing position.

He said "I think people need to relax"  He didn't say "Matt calm down".  You are over-reacting to his comment.

Sooooo....relax?

[the_trooper]

Frankie tells me to relax.  Don't do it. When you want to go to it. Relax don't do it
When you want to come. Relax don't do it. When you want to come

For the record, I agree with the RAW argument (DCA can have axes) regardless how weird or modelling for advantage it is. I mean, it says it right there and it might seem like abuse but there are far worse game abuses that were seen as 100% a-ok.  I don't play no stinkin grey knights either, I play chaos and I sure as anything don't want DCA ruining Typhus' day but thems the rules, right?

[Ed]

I'll hit all ya'll.

[Grand Master Steve]

Frankie tells me to relax.  Don't do it. When you want to go to it. Relax don't do it
When you want to come. Relax don't do it. When you want to come

For the record, I agree with the RAW argument (DCA can have axes) regardless how weird or modelling for advantage it is. I mean, it says it right there and it might seem like abuse but there are far worse game abuses that were seen as 100% a-ok.  I don't play no stinkin grey knights either, I play chaos and I sure as anything don't want DCA ruining Typhus' day but thems the rules, right?

I agree with ya. It would looks silly and wrong but i suppose DCA can be modeled with power axes.

[Banosby]

Apparently there is a lengthy thread about this very question in the Dakka rules forums: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/459398.page

I haven't read the entire thing, and it obviously isn't directly pertinent to the Battleground ruling (Sam isn't bound by Dakka threads), but I thought it might be worth looking at.

I must admit, I've changed my mind a couple of times on this issue, although I think I'm back where I started. The thing that (I hope) we can all agree on is that there isn't any clear answer to the question. Either GW meant 'look at the model on the table' or they meant 'look at the model that we sell' and I cannot imagine how we'd know when they meant. The language they used surely doesn't give us any hints.

It comes down to, I think, which interpretation causes more problems for the game, and I think the restrictive interpretation is less problematic. But then, writing clear rules in the first place would be least problematic.