Power Weapon and who can take what discussion

[Grand Master Steve]

I have just used logic on this. DCA are decribed as women in tight body glove armer weilding Katanas in many cannon I have read. Can I link it? No but thats what I have read. A katana is a graceful fienese weapon, an axe is not and would look silly being wielded by assassins that are supposed to be graceful. A marine? He can use what ever he wants. A gaurdsman? The same sure why not? I have just used simple logic to figure out who could wield or should wield what.  Yes models are WUSIWUG and should always be. I think DCAs are supposed to be graceful assasinating ninjas. When do you hear of Ninjas being graceful with axes?

[Achillius]

@Achillius: The position is that when the rule book says 'look at the model', the model they are referring to is the official GW model, not the model on the table. If this is the case, certain instances of modeling (axes on DCA) are not WYSIWYG because the rulebook/codex doesn't allow for those models to have power axes.

Great post, but you must have the collectors edition of the book because mine makes no reference to the offical GW model at all.  Now my rule book does say look at the model, does provide sub types for power weapons, and even has rules for what to do if you have two different types.

WYSIWYG is the key here, model away (per the hobby section of the book where they talk about weapon swaps) but keep it within the guidelines of the rules as written, not as you would like them to be written. 
 

[BrianP]

@Achillius: The position is that when the rule book says 'look at the model', the model they are referring to is the official GW model, not the model on the table. If this is the case, certain instances of modeling (axes on DCA) are not WYSIWYG because the rulebook/codex doesn't allow for those models to have power axes.

I've seen this argument in a number of places now...

The argument is: we have to look at the official GW model and follow what is there, correct?



Those are the official DCA models. The one on the right clearly has one, single, sword held by both hands. Does that mean that I have to use only the model on the left if I want to claim the "2 power weapons" listed in the codex entry for Death Cult Assassins? Their wargear says they have 2, but the model clear only has one - and apparently model sculpt trumps the codex entry...

Why is allowing "power weapons" to be swords, axes, or halberds as per page 61 because the GW model only has a sword different from preventing half of all death cult models from gaining the extra attack for having 2 power weapons, because one sculpt clearly has only one sword?

The rules on this are very clear... if a "power weapon" in a models wargear has no special attributes it can be a sword, an axe, or a maul. You look at the specific model to decide its specific weapon. If how the GW model has been sculpted trumps what is written in the codex entry then half of DCAs need to lose 1 attack. Not to mention the slew of other even more ridiculous cases we can think up...

If subtracting one attack from half of DCA models was brought up last edition it would be laughed off as ridiculous, just like it should be in this edition. The sculpt of a model has never trumped its wargear in a codex entry - why is this different? Using axes/mauls/halberds on DCA is not MFA, it is just following the rules - poorly written as they may be.

[Loranus]

She has a Sword hidden in the other sword if you notice how her hands are she is about to pull it out. Actually that is a really akward way to hold that sword how I came to the conclusion.

This seems to be drawling out into I want to bend the Rules in or out of context type discussion.

Model really doesn't trump rules Imo but If you want to look at it I agree with Steve A Big Burly Axe is not an Assassin's weapon Smaller Hand Hatchets maybe but those are more along the lines of Power Sword as they are small and fast and don't have the weight of a Big Burly Axes.

Look at Those Same models and Imagine them using



 in the same Manner.

In my head it looks silly and I think that in itself Justifies it. But why Would you want to go at Initiative 1 with your Guy with Initiative 6 and WS 5 to get 1 Additional Str and AP 2. Go Right ahead Im just going to throw more attacks into you before it happens. A 5+ invuln is only going to get you so far and even with the 1 Additional STR and AP 2 I just don't think it is Worth using the Axe at all.

[BrianP]

Totally with you on the fluff standpoint that an assassin should not be wielding a massive battle axe, but if we start arguing things like a hand axe isn't an axe its a sword where does that end?

For all the vague rules GW has written over the years, this is not one (as much as people want it to be). The rules are clear, "power weapon" is either an axe, a sword, or a maul based on what is on the model. Coupled with WYSIWYG this is a pretty decisive case. Resorting to arguments that "it is not fluffy" rather than the rule is telling enough.

I *definitely* agree with you about how to kit out a DCA, trading S4 I6 into S5 I1 does not make sense to me, but if people want to, they are able to.

[Chase]

Fluff should never factor into rules calls.

The only time where fluff helps is in obscure cases where we're trying to figure through the rules as they're intended.  This usually only matters for the Megabattle, because we're most interested in that game playing how we'd like to see it played.  Tournaments are a whole different animal.

Anyways I think there's some compelling arguments here, Alan's latest post specifically.  I do not own a book, but I'd be interested in reading the parts he's referring to.

Sam has ruled in the way that he feels is best and I support that, however.

[blantyr]

Fluff should never factor into rules calls.

The only time where fluff helps is in obscure cases where we're trying to figure through the rules as they're intended.  This usually only matters for the Megabattle, because we're most interested in that game playing how we'd like to see it played.  Tournaments are a whole different animal.

This.

[andalucien]

OK. 

More questions that would need published official rulings if we go the "GW model must have X weapon" route.

Dark Eldar Archon.  here's the only current model:

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440231a&prodId=prod1160049a

That's a sword, but most people interpret it as a Huskblade.  If it IS a huskblade (and really, who knows?), there is no current Archon model that has any kind of a normal power weapon.  Does that mean we are free to make a Dark Eldar archon with any kind of power weapon?

If the answer is that we have to start Googling older eldar Archon models to see if there were any that were made that had normal power weapons of some sort, and only use those, does that mean that tournament organizers need to be aware of the contents of all past Citadel miniature sales in order to provide rulings?   That's impossible, so again I come back to "this will only work if someone makes a spreadsheet that lists all the valid options for each model."

Another one.  Here's the current GW model for a Succubus:
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440231a&prodId=prod1160050a

Is that a Lance, or an Axe?  Need an official ruling.

I found these two very quickly looking only at one army (which I have an interest in because I play Dark Eldar).  I have to believe that this is only the tip of the iceberg.

Also.   If we're limiting the options based on Citadel mini models, I strongly advise you to require that the specific type of power weapon be included on any army lists.  That way, you can validate that the person is making a legal choice, and the person bringning the model doesn't get  surprised in response to a complaint in the middle of the tournament that he now must play the model differently than he thought he was going to have to play it.

[BrianP]

Also.   If we're limiting the options based on Citadel mini models, I strongly advise you to require that the specific type of power weapon be included on any army lists.  That way, you can validate that the person is making a legal choice, and the person bringning the model doesn't get  surprised in response to a complaint in the middle of the tournament that he now must play the model differently than he thought he was going to have to play it.

Agree with everything in the post, but one thousand times this.

Sister Superior models only come with power mauls or swords... from what I read in the other thread where the ruling was made, that means I can never take a power axe in my SOB army, correct?

[Chase]

Also.   If we're limiting the options based on Citadel mini models, I strongly advise you to require that the specific type of power weapon be included on any army lists.  That way, you can validate that the person is making a legal choice, and the person bringning the model doesn't get  surprised in response to a complaint in the middle of the tournament that he now must play the model differently than he thought he was going to have to play it.

This will absolutely be the case.

[Sir_Prometheus]

Fluff should never factor into rules calls.

The only time where fluff helps is in obscure cases where we're trying to figure through the rules as they're intended.  This usually only matters for the Megabattle, because we're most interested in that game playing how we'd like to see it played.  Tournaments are a whole different animal.

Anyways I think there's some compelling arguments here, Alan's latest post specifically.  I do not own a book, but I'd be interested in reading the parts he's referring to.

Sam has ruled in the way that he feels is best and I support that, however.

Chase, Are you going to be in the Plainville store tomorrow (thursday)?  I have the day off and need to pick up my collectors editio n, so I'd be happy to point it out to you.  Obviously I have strong feelings on it, but I think I can keep it objective. 

The truth is, people probably wouldn't be having this debate if all models only had one power weapon.  You have a space marine captain, and you choose to switch out his AP3 weapons for a +1 Str, AP2 but Initiative 1 weapon, that's a pretty clear trade off.  Truth, almost everyone would either pay for a power fist or just stick to AP3.  Of course, various special characters (all BA and SW, I think) come modelled with an axe, so there's that.  But then again, if that power weapon has any special rules, at all (besides something like master crafted) it's back to a regular initiative AP3 weapon, so it' not like it's simple to start with. 

I don't see any archon voluntarily taking an axe, for instance, even though it would be his only way to fight terminators. 

Anyway, where it gts eird is something like the DCAs, where they have two weapons.  Read as written, there's really nothing to stop them from taking 1 axe, 1 sword, and choosing which weapon to use each round.  I'll readily agree it's very powerful, perhaps too powerful, but it's not like their aren't tons of other things like that. 

[Chase]

I am not likely to be there tomorrow at all.  If I am I will stop in later that night.  I've got a lot of errands I need to run and I need to finish a few projects around my place.

Sam will be there tomorrow from open - the evening.  I would like him to have a conversation with anyone who has thought this whole thing through in a major way.  It is far from cut and dry (like I thought it was at first).  I'm glad he's the one making the call here.  It's a big deal and I likely would have flipflopped 4 times by now.

Your book is waiting for you, in all its glory (and it's glory is vast).

[Sir_Prometheus]

This seems to be drawling out into I want to bend the Rules in or out of context type discussion.

I think who is "bending" the rules is a matter of perspective, and best left alone, Pat. 

[Grand Master Steve]

I think people really need to relax. A DCA is amazing in close combat against anything that's not a 2+ armor save. I mean really how many models have a 2+ armor save in the first place? Are you really afraid of pure termie lists? Im not. Plenty of answers for them and power weapons isnt one of them. Really go to CVS go get a tampon and call it a day.


What im confused on, are we not allowed to equip bits to represent a specific weapon any more? I have a Space marine Sarg with a power axe long before this came out. Is this model not illegal? I just need to know if i need to do a weapon swap.

[Loranus]

And it was a Matter of Opinion that I decided to post my thoughts. It is a thread right now with things basically being repeated like every 3rd post. I didn't put anyone on the spot but on both sides it is.

The Rule can be bent both ways we dont know where it is supposed to sit at. Players can bend it towards Official GW models and you can bend it saying its a Hobby with Conversions.

I already posted I think its Silly to give DCAs a Power axe based on my experience with the game. You been playing longer than me and in a more Tournament type style and maybe your seeing something I don't. I accept that may be the case and maybe I will see it eventually. But I don't right now and that is an opinion that some people may agree with atm.

I support the Games-workshop model deal to an extent because it deals with Fluff and Lore of Characters.

I also support the player who wants to go through the effort to make his model different to get an advantage as long as it confirms to the rules. Making Combi-Meltas or Specialized Power Weapons is some of that.

This came about with the Conga Line Topic and the Death Ray Model Count Topic. Both were based on a wording that was not clearly construded by Games-workshop. This is one of those times where it can be looked at 2 ways. Their model or Models in General. Those points are being restated in different wording probably through out the whole topic.

The truth is, people probably wouldn't be having this debate if all models only had one power weapon.  You have a space marine captain, and you choose to switch out his AP3 weapons for a +1 Str, AP2 but Initiative 1 weapon, that's a pretty clear trade off.  Truth, almost everyone would either pay for a power fist or just stick to AP3.  Of course, various special characters (all BA and SW, I think) come modelled with an axe, so there's that.  But then again, if that power weapon has any special rules, at all (besides something like master crafted) it's back to a regular initiative AP3 weapon, so it' not like it's simple to start with. 

I would Disagree on this point because Looking at this I can see the Advantages for a Space Marine Captain to take Both especially if he Takes a Bike. He would become a Very Heavy Assault Based Commander. Hammer of Wrath+ The Choice for extra AP and STR or the ability to go before  your Opponent With 5 Attacks on the Charge and an Automatic STR 4 hit for charging in after shooting the person in the face with 2 Bolter Shots. This coupled with a 3+ save, a 4+ Invuln, Toughness 5, and 3 wounds makes him a Severe threat to Anyone. You run the numbers and being 165 points is a Bargain compared to being restricted.

But then again this comes down to am I allowed to do It. I would like to now that the idea is there but no model Exists for a Captain on a bike and Neither the Bike or Commander Sprues come with an Axe only my Assault Weapon sprue for Space Marines. So this is where the argument can be made for the model doesn't exist but neither Sprue that would make a part of that has said axe.

The difference with say a Techmarine and a DCA is that those models do exist from Games-workshop and even though I can auto-cad and 3d print a DCA with an Axe and a Techmarine with a power sword those are not Games-workshop models. The ruling has been made clear for 2 models so far and like any tournament if a Model comes into question you talk to Sam beforehand to make a calling if it is Legal.

I did not make any gestures as to who was bending the rules but for either side right now its how far can you bend the wording and the perspective of the rule before you break it. That is how any debate dealing with a ruling turns out and it just hits that point.

I think people really need to relax. A DCA is amazing in close combat against anything that's not a 2+ armor save. I mean really how many models have a 2+ armor save in the first place? Are you really afraid of pure termie lists? Im not. Plenty of answers for them and power weapons isnt one of them. Really go to CVS go get a tampon and call it a day.


What im confused on, are we not allowed to equip bits to represent a specific weapon any more? I have a Space marine Sarg with a power axe long before this came out. Is this model not illegal? I just need to know if i need to do a weapon swap.

This is again the confusion. I feel like if you could find a bit from your army that fulfills the role on your model than it should be fine. In a fluff sense your Space Marine Assault Squad pulls the Power Axe out of your Armory what is to stop the Tactical Sergeant from doing the same.  But then it may sound like I am playing favorites so it would be best just to confirm it with Sam.