Power Weapon and who can take what discussion

[the_trooper]

I'm not arguing with judge here, but I do maintain that the option to switch out weapons for axes is an intended change, and all this talk of "modelling for advantage" is starting to feel a little pejorative.

Modelling for advantage:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tUxjS-wOxNY&feature=plcp
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BrGbabRU_dY&feature=context-cha

Also, I tried to find a picture of the infamous "peeper-fex" -  the Carnifex built in such away it could see over terrain for LoS purposes but would always get a cover save.

Those are my examples of what I thought were "modelling for advantage".

I never thought weapon swaps, based on raw (and rai), in a highly converted game, could be considered cheating.  By the logic presented prior, no tactical squad of marines could ever have lascannons let alone power axes.

[Mad Dok Rob]

[/quote]

So you are banning conversions in Plainville?
[/quote]

i am sure that is not going to happen.  of course, if it did, 25% of my Ork army would be unplayable.

[Achillius]

So you are banning conversions in Plainville?

Of course not. In fact, nothing changes.

Players are not allowed to model for advantage by giving a model *statistically* options not included on the original GW model.

It is well understood that players have custom armies and awesome conversions already built. In this case, as it has been before, any questionable models should be presented in some fashion to the TOs before the tournament. And as before, any player with converted models should have a suitable replacement in case their opponent exercises their right to not play against non-WYSIWYG models.

So again, nothing changes and the answer is the exact opposite of what your question implies.

Actually, that is exactly what Sam just said, I was just boiling it down. The example of using a death company power weapon, on a blood claw is quite clear, both units can use power weapons, so who cares where it came from?


Back on the death cult assassin, Codex Grey Knights states they are armed with power weapons. The nice Rule book for sixth states "If a models war gear says it has a pwer weapon which has no further rules, look at the model to tell what type of power weapon it has". It goes on to define look to rules.

So if I model something that is allowed by the codex to have a power weapon, to have a power axe, then it is perfectly legal, and suggesting that we cannot swap bits between kits is ridiculous.

You all need to recognize that GW accepts conversions as part of the hobby and encourages it. The rule book and codex provides the rules and parameters for those conversions.

[Benjamin]

... all this talk of "modelling for advantage" is starting to feel a little pejorative.

This is probably because when I say "modeling for advantage", I mean it in the most pejorative way possible.

As far as the Rules as Intended argument, back to Page 8. Is it fun for both you and your opponent? If the answer is no, then don't do it.

[andalucien]

Starting to see the other side of the power weapon conversion argument.

There has to be some non-ambiguous way to determine which units are allowed to bring which Power weapon variants.

I am realizing that it doesn't make any sense for GW to publish a rule that says "Look at all models Citadel has produced for this unit.   If and only if any of them have something that appears to be an axe, you're allowed to treat this as a power axe. "   

Is there even a database of all models that have been used for e.g. Crusaders? 

If I do some Googling and find out that in 1998, there was a Games day model for some inquisitorial henchman that would be categorized as a Crusader, and that had an axe in its belt, can I produce a photo of this as proof that Crusaders should be allowed to have power axes? 

Are we going to get into arguments over which sprue a given axe-looking thing bit from?  "Actually, there was a little-used hatchet bit on the 2001 Black Templar captain sprue.  Therefore, all black templar captains (unlike other Space Marine captains) are allowed to wield power axes".

This is just silly.  If GW (or anyone running a tournament) intends for this to be the rule that governs power weapons, then someone REALLY needs to publish a comprehensive matrix of exactly which models have been produced with which weapons.   Otherwise, if someone shows up at a tournament with their Dark Angels techmarine holding a club, how exactly will we resolve the dispute about what the techmarine is allowed to carry?

I don't think that Inquisitorial Henchment should be allowed to use anything other than power swords, but that's purely based on power level - I don't think that the argument for divining GW's intent can lead to a consistent ruleset.

The problem with page 8 Ben is that it doesn't provide any way to resolve disputes.  When there is anything (even pride) at stake, disputes happen.  There needs to be a framework in place to quickly resolve these disputes, so that people don't end up having the same argument over and over again.   To Space Marine player A, it seems perfectly reasonable that their Captain should be able to wield a power axe.   To his Tyranid opponent, it might seem wrong.  There needs to be a way to get past this disagreement beyond a "contest of wills".

[Banosby]

@Achillius: The position is that when the rule book says 'look at the model', the model they are referring to is the official GW model, not the model on the table. If this is the case, certain instances of modeling (axes on DCA) are not WYSIWYG because the rulebook/codex doesn't allow for those models to have power axes.

Now, reasonable people can disagree with that position. But that position is manifestly not the position that you can't convert models. It is the position that, by RAW, DCA can only have Power Weapons. If you want your DCA to use Ork bodies, Eldar heads, IG legs, and Daggers from some other game company, and your opponents can tell what they're supposed to be, I'm sure Battlegrounds is fine with that. But if you model them with axes, that is a problem, just like if you model all of your Space Marines with lascannons, that's a problem. The codex doesn't allow them to all have lascannons, and the codex doesn't allow DCA to have axes (at least according to the position taken above, which, again, reasonable people can disagree with).

Perhaps we can split this conversation off to another thread? I have actual rules questions I want to ask without them getting lost:)

[andalucien]

OK I danced around a lot in that post without quickly summarizing the main point:

Although the "model it how you want" approach to power weapons could lead to some undesirable game balance ramifications (most obviously in the case of Death Cult Assassins), at least the rule is clear.

Without a published list of which units are allowed to use which power weapon variants, the "only use what the GW model(s) originally came with" approach will not work for competitive play.

[Banosby]

Don't worry, you made your point well the first time around.

And it has merit, even if I'm arguing the other side:)

[andalucien]

OK I should probably stop beating this horse (sorry Simon) but here's a perfect example.   Triarch Praetorians (current model):

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2002735a_99120110012_TriarchVoidbladeSquad360_445x319.jpg

Wtf is that?  A sword?  An axe?  It's kind of like a sword-axe.  Under the "however it's modelled" rule, there's no problem, just make it clear in your army list & to your opponent whether it's a sword or an axe.  Under the "only official GW poses" policy, there needs to be a standardized interpretation about whether that's a sword or an axe, or just have to argue about it every time.

[Chase]

This topic has been assembled from posts in the rules thread.  It may or may not read well / make sense.  If it does not, I apologize.

[Sir_Prometheus]

So, I have a question for Sam (and Sam rather specifically):

My GK techmarine, metal model, comes with what looks to me like an axe.  I have options, whihc I pay pts for, to switch it out for various NFW, which would be legal, and require conversions.  But changing that axe to a regular sword would be "modelling for advantage" by the same logic, right?

Furthermore, other chapters use the same model.  SInce they don't have options to switch out the main weapon, does that mean all regular techmarines have power axes now?  +1 Str, i1?

My question from before, which arguably belong in this thread.

[Chase]

It is a question that could be in this thread, but it's also a rule question for Sam so I left it behind.  He just answered it too!

[Sir_Prometheus]

I saw that, just sec too late. Thanks.

[Librarian]

I expect codex legion will clear up alot of questions like this. If the unit entries say things like "may be given any power weapon for 15 points. Or may be given a power sword, power axe, power maul, or power lance for 15 points" then it will be clear that you should get your choice. After all there are pros and cons for each. On the other hand if it reads "may take a power sword for 15 points" it will indicate that each entrie is unique.

[Sir_Prometheus]

I dearly hope either a general FAQ or inat clears this up before the next codex. And no, I don't particularly see that helping.