Author Topic: Power Weapon and who can take what discussion  (Read 5980 times)

Typhus

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Re: Power Weapon and who can take what discussion
« Reply #30 on: July 03, 2012, 03:25:10 PM »
if you were clearly meant to switch out swords for axes then GW would not of put in the rule book "if a models wargear says it has a power weapon which has no further special rules, look at the model to tell which type of power weapon it has"

exactly, the bottom line is we have to go off of the OFFICIAL model unless GW FAQs it, using the logic that "DCAs have no chance against terminators" is not an arguement

From a pure rules standpoint, Death Cult Assassins out of the Grey Knights codex are equipped with two power weapons.  Power weapons with no special rules.

Per the rulebook on power weapons, as stated above "if a models wargear says it has a power weapon which has no further special rules, look at the model to tell which type of power weapon it has"

Not "original model at time of release".  Not "official model".  Model.  IE a self-scratch built imperial guardsman with 2 weapons - This is my Model.

Otherwise what you are saying is, that for people to use Death Cult Assassins, they MUST only use the original model, they cannot use any conversions, they cannot use any other model to represent a DCA; They must in fact spend over 160 dollars for you to be correct.

Therefore, in an effort to be transparent and fair based on what you are allowed for wargear, and what an OFFICAL model actually has sculpted on it; This is to say the Torso, Legs, Arms and Legs as sculpted to represent what the model comes with, because going off of what you are arguing above, the wargear purchased MUST be represented on the model at all times

1) You will never be allowed to use the signum for a Devastator, unless it is actually attached to the model.
2) If you do not have a grenade pack attached to each model, then you cannot use grenades.
3) Your vehicle must have the legal spotlight attached to its hull, or you cannot use the searchlight rule.
4) All your Ork vehicles must be painted red, or they cannot use the "red goes faster" upgrade.

And so on.

I want you to tell me exactly where it says, in any rulebook, FAQ, Errata, Official White Dwarf update or universally accepted ETC ruling that says in a hobby based on modeling and converting at tournaments that give prizes for best looking model/army, I am not allowed to convert my miniatures in whatever way I choose.

You don't like it?  Sorry, not my problem.  Per the rules on power weapons, Death Cult Assassins can have any combination of weapons I choose to convert on it's model.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2012, 03:34:27 PM by Typhus »
0000 - Rest Period - BUT YOU BETTER NOT SPEND FOUR WHOLE HOURS SLEEPING. IF YOU DO YOU ARE NOT ANGRY ENOUGH AND TOMORROW YOU GET THE FIRST CHANCE TO PLAY PIN THE TAU ON THE CARNIFEX.

Typhus

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Re: Power Weapon and who can take what discussion
« Reply #31 on: July 03, 2012, 03:32:14 PM »
Bam ready to kick this argument up a notch. I have a captain with a power sword his arm comes off and I give him a Power Axe in the next round because I can't find another Power Sword to use. What would then happen.   As for DCAs you give them one power axe one sword In theory they would either lose an attack or go ar Initiative 1 all the time. I choose to use my Power sword means you donwe't use your axe at all since it would be unwieldy to use to get extra attacks. Getting the benefits of the axe you would strike slower and make more sense but your power sword wouldn't have the striking capability as the axe.

Negatory, good sir.

Both the Power Sword and Power Axe are listed as Melee weapons, and neither are Specialist Weapons.  As such, a model armed with two melee weapons will maintain an extra attack for 2 weapons.  Unwieldy simply means you strike at Initiative 1 if that is the weapon you are using.

IE;  Your Captain armed with Power Sword and Power Axe.  3 attacks base, 4 for 2 Melee weapons.  During the Fight Sub-Round, I must declare which weapon I am using for that round.  I can either choose to have 4 attacks at Initiative 4 using the Power Sword rules, or 4 attacks at Initative 1 using the Power Axe rules.

The same holds true for DCA.  This is due to the fact that weapon type is Melee.  It's under the rules for assault and how many attacks you get.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2012, 03:33:59 PM by Typhus »
0000 - Rest Period - BUT YOU BETTER NOT SPEND FOUR WHOLE HOURS SLEEPING. IF YOU DO YOU ARE NOT ANGRY ENOUGH AND TOMORROW YOU GET THE FIRST CHANCE TO PLAY PIN THE TAU ON THE CARNIFEX.

keithb

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Re: Power Weapon and who can take what discussion
« Reply #32 on: July 03, 2012, 03:35:23 PM »
Either way it's dumb.

Sir_Prometheus

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Re: Power Weapon and who can take what discussion
« Reply #33 on: July 03, 2012, 03:41:59 PM »
Oooh, oooh!  Is it time to post GW rules that are dumb?

I have been waitign for this moment my whole life!

Typhus

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Re: Power Weapon and who can take what discussion
« Reply #34 on: July 03, 2012, 03:42:42 PM »
Either way it's dumb.

Yep.  Thank god I'm going back to Nurgle CSM with Nurgle Daemons as Allies, using Epidemus and Typhus and I will have armywide FNP on 3+ and all my shooting attacks are effectively AP 2, since they will ignore armor.
0000 - Rest Period - BUT YOU BETTER NOT SPEND FOUR WHOLE HOURS SLEEPING. IF YOU DO YOU ARE NOT ANGRY ENOUGH AND TOMORROW YOU GET THE FIRST CHANCE TO PLAY PIN THE TAU ON THE CARNIFEX.

Typhus

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Re: Power Weapon and who can take what discussion
« Reply #35 on: July 03, 2012, 03:43:40 PM »
To further add;

The Crusader model from GW has a Storm Shield and Power Sword.  The Enforcer model from GW (Necromunda) has a Storm Shield and Power Maul.  Both are OFFICIAL GW models and as such are also modeled WYSIWYG per the codex, and as such, are perfectly legal models to use. 

So what if I choose to use the Enforcer model, as it has Storm Shield/Power Weapon, modeled as Maul.  Are you then saying that I cannot use the Enforcer model, and MUST use the Crusader model because the army entry says "Crusader" and not "Enforcer"? 

Are you now dictating what models I can and cannot use in my army?
0000 - Rest Period - BUT YOU BETTER NOT SPEND FOUR WHOLE HOURS SLEEPING. IF YOU DO YOU ARE NOT ANGRY ENOUGH AND TOMORROW YOU GET THE FIRST CHANCE TO PLAY PIN THE TAU ON THE CARNIFEX.

Loranus

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Re: Power Weapon and who can take what discussion
« Reply #36 on: July 03, 2012, 03:47:42 PM »
I don't like the new power weapons at all really. I will probably continuye using a Relic Blade which is probably AP 3 that resolves my hits at STR 6 at normal Initiative.
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keithb

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Re: Power Weapon and who can take what discussion
« Reply #37 on: July 03, 2012, 03:49:46 PM »
Oooh, oooh!  Is it time to post GW rules that are dumb?

I have been waitign for this moment my whole life!

This being the highlight of your life could explain some things I've always wondered about you matt....  ;)

PhoenixFire

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Re: Power Weapon and who can take what discussion
« Reply #38 on: July 03, 2012, 03:54:46 PM »
It's pretty obvious we are not going to come to a consencus on this so unless GW comes out with and FAQ any time soon (which i doubt) we are just going to have to wait for INAT.

In the meantime for tournaments its going to be up to Chase and Sam to decide what to do

but here's some food for thought, look at page 60 instead of page 61 at the force weapon entry, there is the exact same paragraph about if there are no further special rules look at the model.

So we can start swapping force swords for force axes and staves?

by gluing an axe on a model willy nilly your basicly given how ever many models you want AP2 at initiative 1. Or gluing mauls on all of them your giving all those models the concussive powers of a thunder hammer with reduced str and reduced AP.

my opinion is stick with the GW model and don't try to model for advantage, if Chase and Sam want to go the other way that is their call.

Until an FAQ or INAT come up it is anyone interpretation

Chase

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Re: Power Weapon and who can take what discussion
« Reply #39 on: July 03, 2012, 04:07:41 PM »
Sam is going to post this thoughts at some point.  He is aware of the discussion and brought his rulebook home with him.

I support rules debate and discussion 100% but if we could keep this thread reserved for peoples questions for Sam that would be fantastic.  Later on, I may move large parts of this thread to another spot.
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Sir_Prometheus

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Re: Power Weapon and who can take what discussion
« Reply #40 on: July 03, 2012, 07:11:10 PM »
Slapping axes on Death Cult Assassins is modeling for advantage, and the models would be removed at any tournament I'm judging.

Ok, so, in fact a number of my DCAs (and one crusdaer) already have axes, because that's just the bits I had when I was modelling them, and in fact I was going for a little bit of a berserker theme.  (didn't have enough sexy chicks)

Are you saying I cannot use those models?  Or merely that we have to count them as swords?

Chase

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Re: Power Weapon and who can take what discussion
« Reply #41 on: July 03, 2012, 07:22:21 PM »
Are you saying I cannot use those models?  Or merely that we have to count them as swords?

Yeah, we'd probably go that way (swords).
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Achillius

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Re: Power Weapon and who can take what discussion
« Reply #42 on: July 04, 2012, 08:27:09 AM »

-"Can I use a Necromunda model that has the wargear options I want?" That's a bit trickier. I'm thinking not, for the same reason that you couldn't grab a power weapon you like from a Death Company sprue and throw it on one of your Bloodclaws. If we're restricting people to what the official model for that unit has, then we're doing it across the board.


So you are banning conversions in Plainville?
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Benjamin

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Re: Power Weapon and who can take what discussion
« Reply #43 on: July 04, 2012, 11:10:57 AM »
So you are banning conversions in Plainville?
Of course not. In fact, nothing changes.

Players are not allowed to model for advantage by giving a model *statistically* options not included on the original GW model.

It is well understood that players have custom armies and awesome conversions already built. In this case, as it has been before, any questionable models should be presented in some fashion to the TOs before the tournament. And as before, any player with converted models should have a suitable replacement in case their opponent exercises their right to not play against non-WYSIWYG models.

So again, nothing changes and the answer is the exact opposite of what your question implies.

Sir_Prometheus

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Re: Power Weapon and who can take what discussion
« Reply #44 on: July 04, 2012, 12:01:04 PM »
I'm not arguing with judge here, but I do maintain that the option to switch out weapons for axes is an intended change, and all this talk of "modelling for advantage" is starting to feel a little pejorative.