Warhammer 40k 6th Edition Rules Questions

[Loranus]

When do you ever resolve 2 wounds at once. Never. You are Tunnel Visioning this Towards Instant Death Wounds now.

Lets say this now because we will take Instant Death out of the equation. You hit a Scarab unit with 2 models at full wounds with a Heavy Flamer Str 5 AP 4. Following Every Example you say. You would only do 3 wounds to that Unit even if you hit both with the Heavy Flamer. Because you would resolve the First set of wounds at one time. Then you would resolve the second set of wounds and you would lose a wound again. This isn't even causing Instant Death. You would lose that Fourth wound with a model still able to take it. It increases the more you hit may be a slow curve but they add up. . You have a Scarab Unit with 4 Units in it they all get hit by a Heavy Flamer template. Following the Same Example 2 Scarabs would die and then 2 wounds would be lost.

The theory you are proposing is that a model with Multiple wounds can take multiple Instant Death Wounds because they all get allocated at the same time.

But the same concept doesn't apply to Entropic Strike or this is how you said so at the tournament. When against an infantry unit you needed to roll each armour save Seperately because you would lose the armour save if you failed it once. Even though the codex points out when you suffer one or more wounds. Meaning you would get your armour save against all the wounds resolved at the same time then you would lose it.

Summary: Wounds caused to Swarms are resolved all at the same time. While wounds from entropic strike must resolved one at a time even though they are happening all at the same time. This is 2 situations involving wounds that got handled in 2 seperate ways.

Now I am going to bullet something.

-Wounds are handled 1 at a time.
-If a Special rule effects certain wounds they must be kept seperate (Rending, Instant Death, Templates for Swarms)
-Wounds do not just disappear unless no more models exist in the unit.

The way to handle Template weapons in a Combat with Swarms whether all models in the units have Swarm USR.

1. Roll to Hit (Templates Automatically cause hits to the number of models they touch.
2. Roll to Wound(Templates must be rolled for seperately. Just as if they had a Different STR or AP Value)
3a.Roll Saves if Applicable as normal Shooter chooses which AP resolved first as per book.(Again keep the Templates seperate. Flame Templates deny Cover while Blast you get cover make sure those are also seperated if applicable)
  b.Now apply wounds out of the wound pool. For the Current AP. (this is where it gets iffy.)
 The way to handle it is to treat them as if they had a Special Rule or differing AP.
  Now if a Template hits a Swarm unit Immediately it becomes 2 wounds. Handle the first wound as normal then immediately after this wound has resolved treat the second wound as if it was the next wound in the wound pool.  (Yes this mean that wounds multiplied from swarm special rule could spill over onto a model without it.)
4. Resolve (where you see how many casualties and if they need to take a leadership test at the end of the phase or combat.)


This is the most fair and logical way to handle it. It applies to every current situation I can think of towards handling Special Rules in any form. Which is how you should be treating it. Following these steps you now have a Swarm unit being hit by a weapon that No wound disappears and the result is that a Template causing Instant death would Instant Death 2 models with swarm but it is possible that the wound would not be multiplied if it got resolved against a model in the unit who did not have the swarm special rule.

[robpro]

But the same concept doesn't apply to Entropic Strike or this is how you said so at the tournament. When against an infantry unit you needed to roll each armour save Seperately because you would lose the armour save if you failed it once. Even though the codex points out when you suffer one or more wounds. Meaning you would get your armour save against all the wounds resolved at the same time then you would lose it.

For the ES, that is how I had seen it worked out before with a multi-wound model taking the saves against it. I'm no expert, but I do believe that's how it works. If you were my opponent that round, you could have grabbed a TO/judge/etc to double check. However, it didn't have much impact on the game overall.

I think a model without the swarm taking an extra wound is "just as bad" as the wound disappearing. Like I mentioned, I don't believe GW provides enough guidance so it's up to the TO to make a ruling. I'll play by whichever ruling it is, and I tossed out what I thought (which also coincides with what Adepticon thinks, not that that necessarily matters for a non-affiliated event).

I see your point about S5 hits carrying extra wounds to other swarm bases, it just doesn't seem right to me that one roll wound to insta-kills two models though.

[Loranus]

 

For the ES, that is how I had seen it worked out before with a multi-wound model taking the saves against it. I'm no expert, but I do believe that's how it works. If you were my opponent that round, you could have grabbed a TO/judge/etc to double check. However, it didn't have much impact on the game overall.

I was using it as an example since I know you are familiar with how you play that rule. Not anything about an argument towards that ruling you had I accepted it and moved on. Am I trying to call you out on that. No. if you were a Dark Eldar player I believe they have a unit that has the Invulnerable save that as soon as they miss one they lose it and I would have used that as the example. I feel it makes sense and the point of it was to point out how each save was handled seperately like each wound.  It wasn't going to affect the standing it wasn't like It was for prize money or anything. On the topic you said this happened "Several Times" why did you not call a TO/Judge on the first time for the ruling on how it would be handled. This is a forum and I am just putting up a debate with a thought process on how I would handle it and think it should be handled.
 

I think a model without the swarm taking an extra wound is "just as bad" as the wound disappearing. Like I mentioned, I don't believe GW provides enough guidance so it's up to the TO to make a ruling. I'll play by whichever ruling it is, and I tossed out what I thought (which also coincides with what Adepticon thinks, not that that necessarily matters for a non-affiliated event).

I see your point about S5 hits carrying extra wounds to other swarm bases, it just doesn't seem right to me that one roll wound to insta-kills two models though.

That is the downside. If you work it the other way around you could have a template just touch swarm models and the initial wound from the template doesn't get doubled because it gets allocated to a non-Swarm unit. It works as a plus and minus it doesn't rule for or against.

It probably doesn't seem right because unfortunately you are a human being and want it to work out better for you. The same argument could be said for the Doom Ray most people voting for it to work against Flyers were Necron players because they want it to be better.

Looking over the Adepticon FAQ I mean it is an FAQ people send in questions and probably a couple of Tournament Organizers look over a question make a ruling and never look back at it.

The ruling for swarms and wound allocation gives no explanation how they looked and made that decision. Just reference page 43 for the Swarms special rule and page 16 which talks about Instant Death which if I want to be a nitpicker means they didn't look at the page talking about wound allocation at all which is page 15. Until Games-Workshop puts out an FAQ talking about this it will be up to a tournament organizer to decide at his or her tournament. If I were to play Tyranids which I plan to in the future and I had this situation come up with Ripper Swarms this is how I would perform it. If I go to a tournament I would talk to a TO about the ruling before hand and explain to him what I think and if he goes against it I accept it.

[the_trooper]

Sorry if this has been answered elsewhere (I searched, I swear!) but here goes the complaint / question:

It really isn't possible to have an all drop pod Vanilla Space Marine army anymore, is it?

The issue I found was the HQ choice.  They don't / can't have a dedicate transport of a drop pod so they are the odd man out. According to the BRB, it says that ICs are considering separate units in terms of dividing up your force for half on the board, half in reserve. So if you have more than just one IC, one needs to stay in reserve... although, I think I just answered my own question that if you stuck with one IC, you could round up and be fine since only one non-drop pod unit can start in reserve if the number of non-drop pod units is 1.

Thoughts?

[Grimwulfe]

Drop pods drop half of them first turn and do not count as being in reserves (see Drop Pod Assault).  So if your army had all pods you can put all units and IC in the pods and not have any models on the board before the game starts.  Because you drop half your pods first turn it does not limit you to the reserve rule.

I know this rule well as my Dwarves are in 7 pods and all my units are off the board before the game.  First turn I drop 4 pods with BOTH my ICs and units..  Happy days...

[the_trooper]

Oh, yeah, that makes a whole bunch more sense. So you could use drop pods coming in first turn to offset the other things in reserve. Since they are still units that are not in reserve, my captain + terminators in a storm raven could be off set by 2 drop pods coming in turn one.

I forgot how drop pod assault can offset that.  Thanks. Oh space marines, making the game work for you each and every edition. 

[Sir_Prometheus]

Well, I'm nitpicking here, but I think even Drop pods that come in turn one are still "in reserves".

But yeah, they're "forced" to be in reserve, like flyers, and therefore don't count for the 50% rules.  WHo and what in those drop pods counts for being "Forced" to be in reserve also is arguable, but most people treat it as yes, they're forced and therefore don't count towards the limit.

SO the way most people play it, not only can you have a drop pod army, but it's the ONLY army (including variants) that can do a whole reserve list. 

I think you can have as many ICs as you want. 

[Grimwulfe]

Drop Pod Assault gives special rules for this so regardless how you THINK you are nitpicking you are just muttling the issue.  It is not how MOST people play it but the way that it is played period BY THE RULES. 

Lets not make it sound like its a exploit and call it what it is a game mechanic.

[the_trooper]

What's forced into reserves is the unit that is in a drop pod since it's dedicate transport and fliers.

"Independent characters are counted as a single unit regardless of whether they have joined another unit or not." -pg 124

[Grimwulfe]

However if they join a unit in a drop pod they there by follow rules for Drop Pod assault.   That is the key rule you need to read my friend as it explains it nicely.

[the_trooper]

Oh, of course. I was adding it because of his "most people do x" comment and removes the argument. Which was where my initial confusion (now clarified) came from.

[Grimwulfe]

Ya I figured there would be confusion with unnecessary statements such as that.  Drop pods rock!

What you planning my man?

[the_trooper]

I was playing with my Space Sharks last night and forgot to consult the drop pod assault rule .

Given 6th's leaning on troops, much like 5th, and 6ths bipolar relationship with vehicles, my old lists seem more viable than before.

Pretty much using a Caestus Assault Ram (AV13 flyer )to cram Tyberos and terminator buddies down the enemies throats while marines in pods take the objectives.

I may be looking at getting a stormraven to make it a little more "vanilla" friendly and it's also a good 100 points less than a Assault Ram even if it has a crappy armor in comparison.

[Grimwulfe]

I wouldnt say 12 all around is a crappy armor comparison.    Ravens are nice especially when built as gun ships they pump out alot of fire power.

I like the idea are Sharks an actual codex?  I have seen them popping up lately.

[Sir_Prometheus]

No...I'm sorry, whether units that are NOT in their dedicated transport count (so ICs in dropped, anyone in a Stormraven) count for that 50% IS debatable.  People debate it.

* we know that Drop pod's, Flyers themselves, etc, don't count count.

* We know that units and their dedicated transports count as one unit, which means that marines in a drop pod don't count for the 50%.

That's really all we know.  I play it as anything in a drop pod, Flyer doesn't count, including ICs, and that's how most other people play it too, but it is NOT a settled issue.