Warhammer 40k 6th Edition Rules Questions

[Loranus]

http://www.beastsofwar.com/warhammer-40k/cheese-hunters-allies-convenience-super-cheese/


Reference video. Allies of Convenience: They are treated as Enemies does this mean they can deny points of yours since they are treated as Enemy Unit and can Allies of Convenience Troop choices even hold a point since they are enemies of your primary of detachment for all purposes.

Pg.112 ally rules.

[Mannahnin]

The Allies of Convenience rules aren't clear about their scoring/denial status.

Unless you read on to the Desperate Allies rules, which say that they work exactly like Allies of Convenience except for two things: the 6" "roll-a-1-and-your-unit-does-nothing" rule, and the fact that they're not Scoring or Denial.  Which makes pretty darn clear that AoC are indeed scoring or denial like other units in your army.

[Loranus]

The difference between Desperate and Convenience is yes they specify that Desperate are neither Scoring  or Denial units. But that means you can not deny an objective or score an objective like a vehicle with Desperate allies at all. A denial unit is any unit that doesn't fall under those characteristics listed for it. The issue being that if you had an Ally of Convenience you treat it as an enemy as well. An enemy scoring/denial unit would deny you an objective if it was 3" of one you control. The issue comes up of where does it stop being an enemy which is never. Now say your ally of convenience is holding an objective it would deny itself cause its an enemy. Your enemies can not hold objectives for you.

I think it is an interesting bit of Cheese that has come up now because it could change the way allies are taken in the tournament scene. Thought I would bring it up.

[Typhus]

"Your army can include one allied detachment for each primary detachment in your army". - Allied Detachments.

"An army's scoring units are normally all the units that come from the troops selection of the Force Organization chart" - Scoring Units.

So it stands to reason that an Allied troop choice can score given the rules for Scoring.  Nothing says anything anywhere that modifies this under Allies of Convenience.

a) Unit comes from Troop Selection (even the Allied Detachment's mini-FOC), or Heavy/Fast (Big Guns/Scouring)
b) Is not a Vehicle
c) Is not a Swarm
d) Does not have a special rule specifying that it never counts as scoring (Death Company/Allies of Desperation)
e) Is not currently falling back

As far as Denying your own army;

AoC are part of your list.  They are in fact, completely neutral;  Neither Friendly to your units nor an Enemy unit *to your army list*;

It specifically states under AoC how to treat them - As enemy units that cannot be charged, shot, targeted with psychic powers.  Notice under the next line it states "scattering Blast weapons...they will be affected along with any friendly or enemy units."    Not "affected along with any friendly units."

The language in AoC is almost identical to the language under Battle Brothers and in fact uses the same words - the classification of "enemy" is there to denote that you cannot affect them the same way you would Battle Brothers in terms of targeting/joining units/casting blessings on.

[BrianP]

The way I have played, and seen it played, is that Allies of Convenience are denial units for your primary detachment, as they are clearly labeled enemy forces (in addition to acting as typical scoring and denial units). They can own or contest objectives as explained by Mannahnin, but the trick is when they are not on their own.

If I have my dreadknight within 3" of an objective my SoB are trying to capture I am contesting against myself (since I have an enemy unit next to my scoring unit). If I have a GKSS on its own elsewhere on the board it is scoring a-ok, as it is still a scoring unit (and an enemy of the Sisters primary detachment, not of itself).

Update because Typhus snuck in there: Doesn't labeling your AoC as an "enemy force" explicitly make them denial units? I don't have the rulebook in front of me, what is the language for what makes a unit a denial unit?

[Typhus]

Update because Typhus snuck in there: Doesn't labeling your AoC as an "enemy force" explicitly make them denial units? I don't have the rulebook in front of me, what is the language for what makes a unit a denial unit?

"Denial units are those squads that can prevent an enemy from
controlling an objective. In the Eternal W'ar missions, all units
(including troops) are denial units, save for a few exceptions
given below:
. If it is a vehicle, or is a unit currently embarked on a
transport vehicle, or is occupying a building.
. If it has the Swarms special rule.
. If it has a special rule specifying that it never counts as a
denial unit.
. If it is currently falling back (if the unit Regroups it
immediately reverts to being a denial unit again)."

AoC units are not *an enemy to your list*, as they are a part of it.  This is why Desperation has a specific ruling for non-scoring, non-denial units.  So let's be more specific;

It specifically states under AoC how to treat them - As enemy units that cannot be charged, shot, targeted with psychic powers.  Notice under the next line it states "scattering Blast weapons...they will be affected along with any friendly or enemy units."    Not "affected along with any friendly units."

My enemies are not the same as my units' enemies. The rules distinguish between the two. So when page 123 says, "You control an objective if there is at least one model from one of your scoring units, and no models from enemy denial units, within 3" of it," whose enemies are we talking about - mine, or my units'?

I think the answer has to be mine (i.e., the player's). Since the rule says "your" scoring units (i.e., the player's), it's most natural to assume that the enemies referred to are the player's as well.

[Sir_Prometheus]

I would like to remind everyone, again, that GW does not write technical rules such as Privateer Press or Wizards of the COast does (though unfortunately they sometimes ape them, giving that appearance) and the rules break apart when technical standards are applied.   (see the argument on "is a demon a demon" of two years ago)

The fairly easy, common sense interpretation is that yes, Allies of Convenience score and do everything else normally, otherwise there would be no reason to distinguish that for allies of desperation.  Fortunately I've seen anyone actually argue about this outside of a forum. 

[Loranus]

It specifically states under AoC how to treat them - As enemy units that cannot be charged, shot, targeted with psychic powers.  Notice under the next line it states "scattering Blast weapons...they will be affected along with any friendly or enemy units."    Not "affected along with any friendly units."

I am going to look at this a different way just for the point.

As Enemy Units- Means they are enemy units except for you cannot charge them, you can't shoot them, or Target them with psychic powers. This means for any other reason they would be treated as enemy units.

As for the Blast weapon that I feel your taking into a different context they are clarifying basically that they will be affected by blast weapons even though you can not target them initially. Example I have a blast weapon it scatter and lands on them well you can not target them so the blast doesn't effect them. They are just clarifying in that example they would be affected normally.

I am not trying to target you but

AoC are part of your list.  They are in fact, completely neutral;  Neither Friendly to your units nor an Enemy unit *to your army list*;

Is a contradiction to the RAW that states they are treated as enemy units in your army.

As for the Desperate having a specific ruling that is about Desperate Allies not AOC because your AOC can deny your Opponent's Objective. Desperate allies can not do that where AOC can.

Page 123 Controlling Objectives.

You control an objective if there is at least one model from one of your scoring units, and no models from enemy denial units, within 3" of it.

So now your AOC are treated as Enemy units are within 3" that one of your troop choices holding and they are a Denial Unit would deny you the point. With Desperate allies that are Enemies as well but are not denial units they can not deny that point so you hold it.

In no place in the BRB does it say to treat AOC as Neutral Units for any purposes only as Enemy Units. It also says nowhere that if an Opponent's Models are within 3" it says Enemy units. It could be argued that because a Scoring Unit comes from the Troops Choice of your FOC that the Allies Chart is part of your FOC so they could score for you as long as they are the only ones at the point. It needs to be clarified otherwise.

Update:

The fairly easy, common sense interpretation is that yes, Allies of Convenience score and do everything else normally, otherwise there would be no reason to distinguish that for allies of desperation.  Fortunately I've seen anyone actually argue about this outside of a forum. 

If common sense prevailed though we wouldn't have had Scarab Conga Lines. Or the idea that you can ground a Flying Monstrous Creature with a Marker Light shot that does no physical damage. 

[Sir_Prometheus]

You are over thinking it.  Stop. 

If common sense prevailed though we wouldn't have had Scarab Conga Lines.

We didn't, really.   They FAQed it reasonably quickly to the obvious RAI.  I think everyone would have been a lot happier had they played the obvious RAI from the beginning.  I am coming down to the idea that because GW is so imprecise, RAI should > RAW when it's clear enough. 

Or the idea that you can ground a Flying Monstrous Creature with a Marker Light shot that does no physical damage

I maintain that makes perfect sense.  We put people in jail today for shining laser pointers at airliners, after all. 

[GossWeapon]

Hey babe, hows 40k?

[Typhus]

"You control an objective if there is at least one model from one of your scoring units, and no models from enemy denial units, within 3" of it."

You.  Not your units.  You.  Your Army.  Not Your Mans.  Not the little plastic dudes on the table, but you.  You, and Your Army.  Allies of Convenience are not Enemies to YOU.  You simply treat them as enemies for the purpose of targeting.

This is the important distinction that the guys in that video are missing.  Friendly/Enemy are relative to the player.

Because if you want to play RAW/RAI games, the Objectives section says "An army's scoring units are normally all the units that come from the troops selection of the Force Organization chart" and last I checked the Allied Detachment is not the troops selection of the Force Organization Chart so by RAW no allied unit can score, Battle Brother/Allies/Desperation at all.

[Benjamin]

I am coming down to the idea that because GW is so imprecise, RAI should > RAW when it's clear enough.

Just so long as everyone agrees with the rules as you believe them to be intended, right?

[Ian Mulligan]

Just so long as everyone agrees with the rules as you believe them to be intended, right?

THAT BURN WAS A 5 ALARM FIRE

[BrianP]

Shitting up the Abington Doubles thread is one thing, but please keep the trolling, flaming, instigating, whatever distractions, out of this rules thread so it remains somewhat on topic and easy to follow.


@Typhus -->

"You control an objective if there is at least one model from one of your scoring units, and no models from enemy denial units, within 3" of it."

You.  Not your units.  You.  Your Army.  Not Your Mans.  Not the little plastic dudes on the table, but you.  You, and Your Army.  Allies of Convenience are not Enemies to YOU.  You simply treat them as enemies for the purpose of targeting.

This is the important distinction that the guys in that video are missing.  Friendly/Enemy are relative to the player.

Because if you want to play RAW/RAI games, the Objectives section says "An army's scoring units are normally all the units that come from the troops selection of the Force Organization chart" and last I checked the Allied Detachment is not the troops selection of the Force Organization Chart so by RAW no allied unit can score, Battle Brother/Allies/Desperation at all.

This is an interesting distinction. I do not buy your last point, allied detachments still have a troops section, but the difference between what is an enemy to me vs my models is interesting.

Basically instead of getting caught up on the word "enemy" in:

"You control an objective if there is at least one model from one of your scoring units, and no models from enemy denial units, within 3" of it."

you are reading it to be more like:

"You control an objective if there is at least one model from one of your scoring units, and no models from opponent's denial units, within 3" of it."

which makes sense.

[Achillius]

I have to say I'd not even considered the AOC question until I read it here. To me its always been that AOC will contest an objective against its enemies, your primary detatchment and the little (pick color) men across the table.

They are declared as enemy with a few exceptions, RAW, so that made sense. Fluff wise it fit too, "we've got this objective its ours, nooo, its ours we got here first, ...." and so on.

It makes sense and I'd argue its simply written and intended, after all, the ability to ally with another race for some benefit should come with some constraint...

Cheers,
Alan