Warhammer 40k 6th Edition Rules Questions

[Sir_Prometheus]

GW has and apparently always will use horribly imprecise language.

Your grammar nitpickings are quite meaningless. Please stop. Figuring out their miswrote rules is hard enough as it is.

[andalucien]

OK.  If we're NOT debating the grammar, and we're trying to define Rules as Intended,  I would again encourage people to read the top of the Challenges section in the rulebook, which explicitly states the intent.

"Characters, no matter their rank or race, crave the chance to prove their battle skill. There is no more certain a way to do this than to vanquish enemy characters- preferably in full sight of one's allies."

To the extent that challenges in 40k games consist of a strong character issuing a challenge and weak characters running from those challenges (or throwing their bodies in the way of the oncoming freight train in the desperate hope to somehow wound him), the challenge rules are intuitive and work as intended.

To the extent that challenges in 40k game consist of WEAK characters intentionally calling out challenges that they know they will lose, in order to block strong characters from being able to do what they are "paid to do", the challenge rules are counterintuitive and not working as intended.

[Sir_Prometheus]

Except that's exactly how it works in fantasy.

[Achillius]

To the extent that challenges in 40k game consist of WEAK characters intentionally calling out challenges that they know they will lose, in order to block strong characters from being able to do what they are "paid to do", the challenge rules are counterintuitive and not working as intended.

Why in gods name would you do that? Throwing a weak character into a stronger one is giving away points towards combat resolution and makes no sense.

Remember if the big nasty butchers your guy for 4 unsaved wounds, they all count during the tally at the end, and you cannot hit the character back with the squad. Why do this? You want someone who can survive and maybe even wound the other guy in the challenge, failure to do so will hurt your cause. Seems pretty simple and inline with the challenges section.

[Benjamin]

We're officially at the point of pointless back and forth regarding combat challenges.

I have a question in general about Gets Hot. If a model fires two plasma shots and one of them Gets Hot resulting in the death of the firing model, the other shot is still resolved as normal, yes?

Follow up question, if a vehicle with two plasma cannons fires and one of them Gets Hot, with the glance taking off the last Hull Point, does the other plasma cannon even get to fire as Gets Hot rolls happen before rolling To Hit?

[Loranus]

In response to Ben's Question it is similar to how Perils of the Warp works you roll Double 1s if it would kill the Psyker the Power Still goes off. You would Resolve any hits as normal since they are fired all at the same time.

[Typhus]

In response to Ben's Question it is similar to how Perils of the Warp works you roll Double 1s if it would kill the Psyker the Power Still goes off. You would Resolve any hits as normal since they are fired all at the same time.

Not so.  Perils of the Warp specifically states that the power is still used, even if the psyker is killed or wounded.  Get Hot makes no such determination.  As such, you go to process of order.

"When firing a weapon that Gets Hot, roll To Hit as normal.  For each To Hit roll of 1, the firing model immediately suffers a wound (armor saves or invulnerable saves can be taken). 

As this happens when you roll to hit, and before you roll to wound, the model dies before you can inflict the wounds on your target, and as such, the 2nd shot does not get a chance to roll to wound, as the firing model is dead before that can happen.

Same goes with a Vehicle.  The wound (or glancing hit) is suffered immediately after you roll to hit, but before you roll to wound.  As you are dead/wrecked before you get to that point, you cannot make the "to wound" roll.

[Typhus]

To the extent that challenges in 40k game consist of WEAK characters intentionally calling out challenges that they know they will lose, in order to block strong characters from being able to do what they are "paid to do", the challenge rules are counterintuitive and not working as intended.

Why in gods name would you do that? Throwing a weak character into a stronger one is giving away points towards combat resolution and makes no sense.

Remember if the big nasty butchers your guy for 4 unsaved wounds, they all count during the tally at the end, and you cannot hit the character back with the squad. Why do this? You want someone who can survive and maybe even wound the other guy in the challenge, failure to do so will hurt your cause. Seems pretty simple and inline with the challenges section.

Not at all?

In Fantasy, I have my lord, and I have a unit champion.  You challenge me with your big nasty, I accept with my unit champion, who is weaker.  You do 4 unsaved wounds, while my lord butchers the easier to hit and wound models in your unit, and I win combat on resolution.

Happens all the time.

[Sir_Prometheus]

In response to Ben's Question it is similar to how Perils of the Warp works you roll Double 1s if it would kill the Psyker the Power Still goes off. You would Resolve any hits as normal since they are fired all at the same time.

Not so.  Perils of the Warp specifically states that the power is still used, even if the psyker is killed or wounded.  Get Hot makes no such determination.  As such, you go to process of order.

"When firing a weapon that Gets Hot, roll To Hit as normal.  For each To Hit roll of 1, the firing model immediately suffers a wound (armor saves or invulnerable saves can be taken). 

As this happens when you roll to hit, and before you roll to wound, the model dies before you can inflict the wounds on your target, and as such, the 2nd shot does not get a chance to roll to wound, as the firing model is dead before that can happen.

Same goes with a Vehicle.  The wound (or glancing hit) is suffered immediately after you roll to hit, but before you roll to wound.  As you are dead/wrecked before you get to that point, you cannot make the "to wound" roll.

Actually, I disagree.  All these shots occur simultaneously (by GW law).  So if one of two shots kills the model (infantry or vehicle, I don't see the difference) well then he's dead, but the other shot still goes off.  It was launched and hit by a model that was, at that moment, still alive.

There has to been precedent for this, people could rapid fire plasma in 5th. 

[Loranus]

In response to Ben's Question it is similar to how Perils of the Warp works you roll Double 1s if it would kill the Psyker the Power Still goes off. You would Resolve any hits as normal since they are fired all at the same time.

Not so.  Perils of the Warp specifically states that the power is still used, even if the psyker is killed or wounded.  Get Hot makes no such determination.  As such, you go to process of order.

"When firing a weapon that Gets Hot, roll To Hit as normal.  For each To Hit roll of 1, the firing model immediately suffers a wound (armor saves or invulnerable saves can be taken). 

As this happens when you roll to hit, and before you roll to wound, the model dies before you can inflict the wounds on your target, and as such, the 2nd shot does not get a chance to roll to wound, as the firing model is dead before that can happen.

Same goes with a Vehicle.  The wound (or glancing hit) is suffered immediately after you roll to hit, but before you roll to wound.  As you are dead/wrecked before you get to that point, you cannot make the "to wound" roll.

But it is the closest situation in which we can relate to this happening. You roll a Success the Success still happens even if a Failure causes the loss of Model. You already fired the shot and hit it doesn't suddenly fizzle because your guy died.

[Achillius]

To the extent that challenges in 40k game consist of WEAK characters intentionally calling out challenges that they know they will lose, in order to block strong characters from being able to do what they are "paid to do", the challenge rules are counterintuitive and not working as intended.

Why in gods name would you do that? Throwing a weak character into a stronger one is giving away points towards combat resolution and makes no sense.

Remember if the big nasty butchers your guy for 4 unsaved wounds, they all count during the tally at the end, and you cannot hit the character back with the squad. Why do this? You want someone who can survive and maybe even wound the other guy in the challenge, failure to do so will hurt your cause. Seems pretty simple and inline with the challenges section.

Not at all?

In Fantasy, I have my lord, and I have a unit champion.  You challenge me with your big nasty, I accept with my unit champion, who is weaker.  You do 4 unsaved wounds, while my lord butchers the easier to hit and wound models in your unit, and I win combat on resolution.

Happens all the time.

Well In fantasy, you have rank bonuses, banners, bonuses for charging, and more bonuses for where where you charge.  You can actually get a whole boat load of combat resolution without killing anything. You can essentially negate a characters combat bonus with ranks if you do it right.

But wait!
This isn't Fantasy and the mechanics, while similar are not the same, because we don't use those things....

try again, but this time in context. 40k,

[Benjamin]

Actually, I disagree.  All these shots occur simultaneously (by GW law).  So if one of two shots kills the model (infantry or vehicle, I don't see the difference) well then he's dead, but the other shot still goes off.  It was launched and hit by a model that was, at that moment, still alive.

There has to been precedent for this, people could rapid fire plasma in 5th.

The difference is in the Gets Hot rule for BS-less weapons, as it is determined immediately before you roll To Hit. If a vehicle has two Plasma Cannons, then what? It would seem that the plasma cannons blow up the vehicle before it actually fires, which is different than infantry plasma.

[Typhus]

Actually, I disagree.  All these shots occur simultaneously (by GW law).  So if one of two shots kills the model (infantry or vehicle, I don't see the difference) well then he's dead, but the other shot still goes off.  It was launched and hit by a model that was, at that moment, still alive.

There has to been precedent for this, people could rapid fire plasma in 5th.

The difference is in the Gets Hot rule for BS-less weapons, as it is determined immediately before you roll To Hit. If a vehicle has two Plasma Cannons, then what? It would seem that the plasma cannons blow up the vehicle before it actually fires, which is different than infantry plasma.

So:

Infantry, Vehicle with a BS using Plasma weapon (ie Razorback with Las/Twin Plasma Gun) - Get Hot check is when you Roll To Hit.  You Roll To Hit (firing twice), Getting Hot once, and hitting with the other.  You immediately roll your own armor save and fail, killing you/glancing hit.  But you have successfully hit, so you are allowed to roll to wound your target.

I cede this, based on the fact that it you've passed the To Hit stage, and can now Roll To Wound.  This is even stated "roll to Hit as normal" under Gets Hot.

Infantry, Vehicle without a BS using a Plasma Weapon (ostensibly a Plasma Cannon) - "Roll a d6 immediately before firing".  So, how do you fire a blast weapon?

"When firing a Blast weapon, models do not roll To Hit.  Instead, just pick one enemy model visible to the firer and place the relevant blast marker with the hole..."

As stated, the act of placing the blast marker counts as firing the weapon.  As you roll "immediately before", you make the check before you place the template, ergo it is entirely possible to blow yoursellf up before you shoot.

[Sir_Prometheus]

With a plasma cannon, the extra d6 is a surrogate for missing, so it's an extra step.  It's an "extra" chance to miss.  That's why you roll it first.

It's still all really happening simultaneously.  An entire units shooting happens at the same time.  This is a rule. 

[Benjamin]

I don't have a dog in the fight one way or the other. But it seemed oddly inconsistent. It would be simple enough to say, "Roll a die along with your shot. If this die is a 1, your weapon overheats." I think they say to roll a die before so that you don't waste time placing a blast marker... 1 out of every 6 times.