Warhammer 40k 6th Edition Rules Questions

[Sir_Prometheus]

My problem is, nothing that you described here alters the normal overflow process.  You're right, he continues to be in BtB, and that prevents a pile in move.  But wounds still continue to be allocated to the next clsoest model.

It's not what I think they intended.  It's not what I want.  But it is what I think it currently says.

Continues to be in Base To Base.  Wounds allocate to closest (which is base to base).  You are *only* in base to base with the challenger.  Not "I am considered to be in base to base with the challenger and models in his unit", the rules specifically state "You are considered to be in base contact with only each other"

Ergo, all your wounds per allocation rules have to allocate to him, as he is the closest model, by the virtue of being the *only* model in base to base, which I hope I have proven above, lasts the entire challenge.

Right...there's a huge logically leap there, between your first and second paragraph.  If he was in BtB with the "challenger and models in his unit" he'd be litterally touching every other model in the opposing unit, something that almost never happens anyway.  That has nothing to do with how wounds are allocated.

Let me put it another way.  It is totally possible, after charging, for two units to wind up in contact only at the intersection guys.  Only two models are touching.  No challenge is involved in this case.  If one of those models does 3 unsaved wounds to other unit, the guy that's in BtB is the closest model, and dies.  But does it end there?  No, you follow the wound allocation process, and the two next closest guys behind him are gonna die too. First wound goes to closest model, until wounds are reduced to zero, and once they are, you proceed to the next closest model.

Nothing about a challenge, none of the language on those two pages, alters that wound allocation process.  "still in BtB" is exactly the same as the scenario presented above.  "the challenge continues until end of phase" really just means that the rest of the unit still can't affect the model in the challenge. 

[Loranus]

I see what Typhus is saying and I agree with it. It is like the issue with Look out Sir and wound allocation. You apply wounds to models closest to you and your in Base to Base with only the other character and not in combat with the rest of the squad.

Wounds are Saved the unsaved wounds are applied to the model in Base to base. Your in Base to Base even if he has no wounds. The way to look at it also is if he has a Different Armor save than the rest of the squad. Example would be a Captain with Artificer Armour in a Squad of Tactical Marines. He makes all his saves against a power sword on a 2+ against the wounds in combat in a challenge meaning all those wounds go on him even if he failed cause not a single tactical marine had to make a save even though they wouldn't get it. Another Example reversing it to a better save would be a Terminatour Sergeant with Lightning Claws getting hit by a Power Axe while the rest of his squad has Storm Shields they don't get to make 3+ invuln saves against the weapon he has to make a 5+ on. In such a case they would not be taking wounds cause of the different armour and invuln saves cause they never had to make those saves in the first place.

[Typhus]

My problem is, nothing that you described here alters the normal overflow process.  You're right, he continues to be in BtB, and that prevents a pile in move.  But wounds still continue to be allocated to the next clsoest model.

It's not what I think they intended.  It's not what I want.  But it is what I think it currently says.

Continues to be in Base To Base.  Wounds allocate to closest (which is base to base).  You are *only* in base to base with the challenger.  Not "I am considered to be in base to base with the challenger and models in his unit", the rules specifically state "You are considered to be in base contact with only each other"

Ergo, all your wounds per allocation rules have to allocate to him, as he is the closest model, by the virtue of being the *only* model in base to base, which I hope I have proven above, lasts the entire challenge.

Right...there's a huge logically leap there, between your first and second paragraph.  If he was in BtB with the "challenger and models in his unit" he'd be litterally touching every other model in the opposing unit, something that almost never happens anyway.  That has nothing to do with how wounds are allocated.

Let me put it another way.  It is totally possible, after charging, for two units to wind up in contact only at the intersection guys.  Only two models are touching.  No challenge is involved in this case.  If one of those models does 3 unsaved wounds to other unit, the guy that's in BtB is the closest model, and dies.  But does it end there?  No, you follow the wound allocation process, and the two next closest guys behind him are gonna die too. First wound goes to closest model, until wounds are reduced to zero, and once they are, you proceed to the next closest model.

Nothing about a challenge, none of the language on those two pages, alters that wound allocation process.  "still in BtB" is exactly the same as the scenario presented above.  "the challenge continues until end of phase" really just means that the rest of the unit still can't affect the model in the challenge.

Ok, so;

We have established that even if you slay a challenger, you are still considered to be in base contact with that model until the end of the phase in which it is slain, per the Challenge rules.

I am in base to base with a challenged model (his unit is around me).  I do three unsaved wounds. 

"If one of those models does 3 unsaved wounds to other unit, the guy that's in BtB is the closest model, and dies" - Ok.

"No, you follow the wound allocation process" -Ok.

Wound allocation process goes closest to closest.  So in the above example, the model in base to base is allocated a wound.

Page 25: Wounds are allocated and resolved with the closest model, just like in the Shooting Phase;  The bullet points;

-A Wound must be allocated to an enemy model in base contact with a model attacking at that initiative step...Roll the model's saving throw (if it has one), and remove the casualty (if necessary);

-If there are no enemy models in base contact with a model attacking at that initiative step, the wound is allocated to the next closest enemy model...etc.

Per Wound allocation, the process of order is follows

Is there a model in Base Contact.  If Yes, remove Model.  Go to next wound to allocate
Is there a model in Base Contact.  If No, remove next closest model.

So you are in a challenge.  You do 3 wounds.  Follow process of order;

Is there a model in Base Contact.  Yes.
-Allocate wound and remove model.  Go to next wound to allocate
Is there a model in Base Contact.  Yes, by virtue of the rules in a challenge that state you are considered to be in base contact only with each other which persists through death until the end of the phase.
-Allocate wound and remove model.  Go to next wound to allocate
Is there a model in Base Contact.  Yes, by virtue of the rules in a challenge that state you are considered to be in base contact only with each other which persists through death until the end of the phase.
-Allocate wound and remove model.  Go to next wound to allocate

That's how it works.  That is RAW wound allocation.  You cannot allocate an unsaved wound to the next closest model as long as you are in base contact with a model.  Per the rules of the Challenge, you considered to only ever in base contact with challenger, and that consideration lasts until the end of the phase.

[Sir_Prometheus]

Oooohhhhh......you are saying that in this case, the dead challenger is "still there" and essentailly acting a zero wound sponge.

"If there are no enemy models in base contact with a model attacking at that initiative step"  is the missing logical leap.

Yeah, ok, I concede.  Wounds do not overflow from challenges.  Happy to lose. 

[Typhus]

Oooohhhhh......you are saying that in this case, the dead challenger is "still there" and essentailly acting a zero wound sponge.

"If there are no enemy models in base contact with a model attacking at that initiative step"  is the missing logical leap.

Yeah, ok, I concede.  Wounds do not overflow from challenges.  Happy to lose. 

Yeah, that's my point;  even if the model is gone, he's still a sponge.  I mean, look at it from not a rules point, but from a theory point;

As the argument was stating, I challenge you, you accept, I murder you and your unit which cannot attack me.

I challenge you, you refuse, you are still in base with me (but cannot strike blows), and I murder you and your unit, which now can attack me. 

The only difference then is that the Challenger gets to strike the unit with impunity, so if you are going to lose either way, why would you ever accept a challenge?  It'd be better off to refuse all the time so you get to strike wounds into the Challenger.

[Sir_Prometheus]

Sam?

[Benjamin]

I think the key phrase that's missing from the rules is Wound Pool. It seems like it would be better written as, "Wounds caused in a challenge create a Wound Pool from which wounds can be allocated only to the model in the challenge." The concept of a Wound Pool logically resolves the rest of the issues, I think... But then again to this point, every word I've uttered trying to understand 6th has been wrong.

[andalucien]

The only difference then is that the Challenger gets to strike the unit with impunity, so if you are going to lose either way, why would you ever accept a challenge?  It'd be better off to refuse all the time so you get to strike wounds into the Challenger.

Well, first of all, let's look into the phrase, "if you know you're going to lose".  I think that GW definitely intended "not accepting the challenge" to be the default response if you know you're going to lose.   

If we're trying to discern the Rules as Intended, well, it's pretty obvious that challenges are meant to be be undertaken when you think you have a chance at winning the fight.  How do I know that's what's intended?  Well, it's printed at the top of the "challenges" page in the rulebook:

"Characters, no matter their rank or race, crave the chance to prove their battle skill. There is no more certain a way to do this than to vanquish enemy characters- preferably in full sight of one's allies."

So, I don't see how anyone can argue that "but if overflow exists, it might mean my weak character would  decline most challenges, and that's just crazy".   It think it actually makes perfect sense.

Also, it's simply not true that it's ALWAYS correct to reject the challenge if you think you're going to lose.  If you even think you have a chance at inflicting a wound against a stronger opponent, it could easily be better to accept the challenge than to decline.  If your sargeant with a power weapon declines, he doesn't get any close combat attacks against ANYONE.  If he accepts, at least he might do a wound to the Necron Overlord (or whoever the stronger challenger is).

[Achillius]

Not sure I can get my head around the challenge discussion. It seems pretty simple that challengers are on their own.

They're only in B2B with each other
They cannot be attacked except by the character they are in combat with.
No look out sir.
All unsaved wounds in the challenge count to the result.

So nasty a bugger kills poor sgt jones of the xxv guard, hitting him 4 times and wounding him three of which he saves 1, 2 unsaved wounds. Sarge dies, and the combat result is now +2 from the challenge. No extra guardsmen die, but the result affects over all combat.

[Loranus]

Precision Shots are they allocated one at a time like regular shots? Example would be I get 3 Precision shots and I want to place them on a Character until he is dead if that takes 2 I can still allocate the last one to a special or heavy weapon model.

[Sir_Prometheus]

Not sure I can get my head around the challenge discussion. It seems pretty simple that challengers are on their own.

They're only in B2B with each other
They cannot be attacked except by the character they are in combat with.
No look out sir.
All unsaved wounds in the challenge count to the result.

So nasty a bugger kills poor sgt jones of the xxv guard, hitting him 4 times and wounding him three of which he saves 1, 2 unsaved wounds. Sarge dies, and the combat result is now +2 from the challenge. No extra guardsmen die, but the result affects over all combat.

So are we saying the archon murders the marine sergeant, he only kills the sergeant, but the extra wounds still count towards combat resolution?  That would be exactly like Fantasy, but I'd need you to walk me through it, cuz I'm not sure I see it in the rules. 

[Typhus]

Precision Shots are they allocated one at a time like regular shots? Example would be I get 3 Precision shots and I want to place them on a Character until he is dead if that takes 2 I can still allocate the last one to a special or heavy weapon model.

Wounds happen at the same time, so you would have to declare which ones go on which model before you roll them all.

[Achillius]

So nasty a bugger kills poor sgt jones of the xxv guard, hitting him 4 times and wounding him three of which he saves 1, 2 unsaved wounds. Sarge dies, and the combat result is now +2 from the challenge. No extra guardsmen die, but the result affects over all combat.

So are we saying the archon murders the marine sergeant, he only kills the sergeant, but the extra wounds still count towards combat resolution?  That would be exactly like Fantasy, but I'd need you to walk me through it, cuz I'm not sure I see it in the rules.

Sure, page 65, under Assault result, "Any unsave wounds caused in a challenge count towards the assault result, alongside any unsaved wounds from the rest of the characters units"

[BrianP]

We have established that even if you slay a challenger, you are still considered to be in base contact with that model until the end of the phase in which it is slain, per the Challenge rules.

I do not think this is true - the rule states that, For the duration of a challenge, the two combatants are considered to be in base to base contact with only each other.

That is not the same as saying "For the duration of a challenge, the two combatants are considered to be in base to base contact" or ""For the duration of a challenge, the two combatants are considered to always be in base to base contact with each other"

The challengers are not always in base contact, they are just never in base contact with anything else - thus, if one challenger dies the other is no longer in base contact with anyone else and wounds are allocated following the "nearest model" rules.

The fact that there is a "wound sponge" for the duration of the challenge is predicated on the fact that the two challengers are always in base to base contact, which is a grammatical misinterpretation of what is written in the rules.

There is a huge debate on this on practically every 40k forum currently... we are lucky enough to have Sam to make a decision we all agree to until the next FAQ comes out in August (and hopefully addresses this).

[Achillius]

I'm a bit at a loss as to why this is a problem as I believe it to be simple RAW.

Before I break this down, remember this little rule: Page 7, basic vs. Advanced "where advanced rules apply to a specific model, they alway override any contradicting basic rules"

Assault rules == basic (pages 10 -31)
Challenge == Advanced.

Moving along based on the challenge rules on page 64 and 65.

1. A challenge is made
2. Assume accept Move challenger and challengee next to each other.
          Now per Outside forces section: no attacks can be resolved against either character, resolve attacks as if they are not there.
3. Assume nasty Archon butcherd Sgt Fred, fred's dead at Init 6/7
      per combatant slain, challenge is assumed to be ongoing until end of phase, so ignore the archon for anything until combat result is determined.
4. Everyone else fights, assuming there's guardsment left to make it worthwhile.

5. Per Assault result determine the result: DE unit + Archons Unsaved wounds caused = DE result. Guardsman unit + Sgt Freds Unsaved wounds caused = Guard result.

5a: Archon caused 3 unsaved wounds on sgt. Unit killed 4 more guard they score 7, Guard wiff, and have to test at -7.
5b: (my favorite) archon caused 3 unsaved woulds, DE Wiff, they score 3: Guard kick the crap outta pointy ears, and score 4. DE now tests at -1.

B2B doesn't really seem to matter beyond making the lines straight and keeping everyone fighting next to each other. What is missing that is causing an issue?