fortifications, yes or no?

[PhoenixFire]

Now that the new book is out what are everyones thoughts on fortifications?

The force org chart allows you to take one (or 2 in a 2k+ game)

I dont know how everyone elses codex faired, but if i dont take an agis defence line i have NOTHING in my codex with the skyfire rule and therefore are pretty defenseless against all the shiny new flyers everyone has.

The only things im seeing with skyfire are...

Hydra autocannon for IG.
A new type of missle from a missle launcher called "flakk" (not sure who will be able to buy that)
And the aforementioned Aegis defence line


Thoughts?

[Bill]

I personally don't think fortifications (or double force org for that matter) should be used. Fliers are EXTREMELY limited on how they are able to move and therefore target things. This can be heavily utilized to ensure many things don't get shot by fliers. GK do have a unit to deal with Fliers: Dreadknights which are one of the best flying MCs in the game. With the test games I have done so far (bearing in mind I have only done three) flying MCs are much harder to deal with than fliers, especially those with a 2+ save.

[PhoenixFire]

I personally don't think fortifications (or double force org for that matter) should be used. Fliers are EXTREMELY limited on how they are able to move and therefore target things. This can be heavily utilized to ensure many things don't get shot by fliers. GK do have a unit to deal with Fliers: Dreadknights which are one of the best flying MCs in the game. With the test games I have done so far (bearing in mind I have only done three) flying MCs are much harder to deal with than fliers, especially those with a 2+ save.

Dreadknights are a flying monstrous creatures? The only flying mcs in the book i see are the 2 daemons have and 1 tyranids have.

The flying rules talk about swooping is like a jump mc but with a few differences

[Bill]

Yes, the FAQ makes them flying MCs when they take personal teleporter

[Grand Master Steve]

I think gun line armies like Tau and Gard will benefit the most from some of the fortificatios.

[PhoenixFire]

Yes, the FAQ makes them flying MCs when they take personal teleporter

I hate to contradict you Bill as your a lot better at this game then i am but i just read the FAQ and the Personal Teleporters make them Jump MCs


http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2420373a_Grey_Knights_6th_Ed_V1.pdf

I think gun line armies like Tau and Gard will benefit the most from some of the fortificatios.

i need to go re-read the fortifications section again, but i assume xeno armies are allowed to take fortifications as well since i didn't see Tau, Tyranids, Eldar or Dark Eldar with any "Skyfire" weapons.

Maybe GWs intent is to force everyone to takes flyers to deal with flying threats (i think i saw somewhere online Tau is getting a flyer soon)

But back to what Bill was saying i agree fortifications is going to be a massive pain for tournaments, and one of the ways I've heard of getting around the double force org is to have a tournament of 1999 points to alleviate the problem. or i imagine BG can just say "hey no double force org guys"

[Chase]

I am going to be paying attention to other tournaments (NOVA, specifically) very closely this summer.

If I has to guess I would say that tournaments are either going somewhat heavily restrict things at first and then peel back various things.... or the opposite.

[Grand Master Steve]

its also a ploy to sell more bastions and defence lines. Your right, Tau, Eldar, Dark Eldar, Necrons, Orks, Tyrinids have Nothing to represent a fortification. Only Imperial and Chaos armies do. With Chaos armies you just have to shave off the imperial symobol, apply symbol of choice, and cover it with spikes skulls and chains.

[andalucien]

its also a ploy to sell more bastions and defence lines. Your right, Tau, Eldar, Dark Eldar, Necrons, Orks, Tyrinids have Nothing to represent a fortification. Only Imperial and Chaos armies do. With Chaos armies you just have to shave off the imperial symobol, apply symbol of choice, and cover it with spikes skulls and chains.

I saw an interesting idea somewhere... how similar in dimensions are Necron Monoliths to bastions?   Could you just plop down a monolith and call it a bastion?  That would be cool considering that I still can't see much use for the actual monoliths themselves in this edition.

[PhoenixFire]

its also a ploy to sell more bastions and defence lines. Your right, Tau, Eldar, Dark Eldar, Necrons, Orks, Tyrinids have Nothing to represent a fortification. Only Imperial and Chaos armies do. With Chaos armies you just have to shave off the imperial symobol, apply symbol of choice, and cover it with spikes skulls and chains.

I'm sure it is a ploy to sell more fortifications, just like allies is a ploy to sell more everything, and the new flyers being so good are a ploy to sell flyers.

GW is not that stupid, they know if they put something new and shiny in front of us we will buy it in bulk lol

[Grand Master Steve]

yep! but if we want Xenos ones we gotta make our own.

[Sir_Prometheus]

Yes, Teleporters make Dread Knights specifically "Jump MCs" as in "No fly for you......!" 

I'm disappointed in it, as it would finally DKs worthwhile, but it does make a certain amount of sense, since they're NOT flying, they're kinda doing a Bleach style "flashstep".

On the other hand, it leaves this funny thing.......GKs use Dread knights specifically to fight Demon MCs like bloodthirsters (that's why they have the Dark Excommunication power).........almost all of whom have wings.  Which means they can just stay stay flying and play a game of "You can't touch me!"  How thematic is that? 



Seperately, looking through the bestiary, and FAQs, there are precisely two (2!) Skyfire weapons in the current lineup.  Hydras (which are kinda useless for anything else) and Flak missiles (which appear to be avaialbe to standard SM missile launchers, not much else, going by the bestiary in back)


And flyers, btw are ridiculous.  Very hard for some armies to shoot down (really the more shots the easier, so Elite armies have a hard time while Orks, surprisingly, have a pretty easy time of it).  It's all a very transparent ploy to force you into buying fliers and fortifications.  I played my first game of 6th against Will's DE, and disagree strognly with Bill that they are hard to use due to overshooting.  Moving 18" a turn, starting from the right point, it was fairly trivial for him to get 3 turns of shooting at what he wanted.  And even though I had a Bastion with the lascannon, that just wasn't enough. 

I'm sure there will be adaptions to this ( I should have brought my SR up his tail, but didn't want to for other tactical considerations, it being a transport I wanted to deliver troops) but overall, flyers are overwhelming, and fortifications are the maing counter to this.

Personally, I'd be ok with disallowing flying and fortifications (I'd still want to use my SR as a fast skimmer transport, please) but then we wouldn't really be playing 6th anymore.  If you allow one, you have to allow the other.

[Grand Master Steve]

as an owner of a super heavy flier that gets shot down on a regular basis I assume the dice gods were just not with you. Fliers can be delt with with mass fire, or AA weapons. all fliers automaticly have AA now. So if your oponent is bugging you with a flier use yours and shoot him out of the sky!. I find the aspect of getting into dog fights quite thrilling and cant wait to do it. Rememver there are other ways to win games. Claim objectives, kill their warlord, get over the table edge first and kill something first. Unless you are tossing scenarios out the door and go lets just kill eachother using the basic rules then yes the game will suck and be no fun. In the end its just a beer and pretzils game.

[tilarium]

I think it's more an oversight that guard (and other armies) have nothing with skyfire.  Shouldn't the Hydra and maybe the Manticore have it?  There's also the flakk missles that can be fired from missle launchers, but they have to be bought as an upgrade.  I think GW forgot about that when they did the updates and FAQs.

[PhoenixFire]

Seperately, looking through the bestiary, and FAQs, there are precisely two (2!) Skyfire weapons in the current lineup.  Hydras (which are kinda useless for anything else) and Flak missiles (which appear to be avaialbe to standard SM missile launchers, not much else, going by the bestiary in back)

I assumed the flak missles are in FAQs somewhere but i didnt see it in the vanilla marine faq so i dont know, it says specifically in the book that the flak missle is an upgrade for SOME mi

Personally, I'd be ok with disallowing flying and fortifications (I'd still want to use my SR as a fast skimmer transport, please) but then we wouldn't really be playing 6th anymore.  If you allow one, you have to allow the other.
[/quote]

Personally, I'd be ok with disallowing flying and fortifications (I'd still want to use my SR as a fast skimmer transport, please) but then we wouldn't really be playing 6th anymore.  If you allow one, you have to allow the other.

i have to agree with you there, GW seems to have designed 6th editions and flyers to be counterbalanced by fortifications, you take one away and the other is way overpowered

and i dont see ANYONE banning flyers so the only logical option is to allow fortifications and figuring out a way for xenos to get something with the skyfire rule... through an allied detachment?

the only other way to deal with flyers is GW seems to have FORCED us to include flyers in every army list