Theft and piracy

[NateT]

I think the point is, as I see it, sometimes GW makes decisions that are questionable from both a logic and an ethical point of view, decisions that some feel hurt the communities that have been built painstakingly over years. 

I probably won't buy the rulebook, I will wait for the starter, as I find that more useful and better value (and, I happen to have a Dark Angels force that needs more Deathwing!).  The purchase will be made in Plainville, and I am cool with waiting...

What bothered me most I guess was the tone of a few posters, claiming that someone who downloads anything from GW is stealing food from the stores proverbial table, despite having sunk many hundreds to thousands of dollars in the past, at Bg and many others  "hey, man, you're a scumbag who isn't good enough for this hobby!". You know, the one you are TWO DECADES deep into... You can't gripe, you can't rationalize as you see fit, you simply must comply, pay the tax and move on.  If someone wants to play me in a casual game at BG with some print outs, I would rather convince him to go all in with the community than ostracize him from it.  Maybe he got the army second hand and needs some hand-holding so to speak.  Mostly though, I think it's up to BG, how this goes at their store, not you and not I.  And Derek and Chase are such great guys, I think they will be able to sell them on the proper armybook and some blisters.

I can certainly see the value in your point of view, but you simply seem sort of aggressive, in kind of an ad hominim fashion, with those who's point of view is even slightly more nuanced.  Keith's relationship with BG and Derek and Chase is their business, is all I'm saying.

EDITED: slightly to mollify my own tone and seem less douche-y.  Seriously, I value this kind of back and forth, and want to be accepted at BG more, not less.  I am another one of those Southcoast folks who miss our beloved Game Haven... so yeah, we know the value of supporting our local store!   

[the_trooper]

How can you justify printouts when they clearly offend just about every game store worker who sees them?

How can you rationalize that it's cool to pirate on a easily parsed public forum?

As an earlier poster said, it's a privilege, not a right.  Do you consider it a right to have access to those rules?

I watched Danger Planet close and never re-open.  That's depressed my gamer cred. *gang sign*

*all you's used are royal you's.

[Neito]

How can you justify printouts when they clearly offend just about every game store worker who sees them?

(Total Devil's Advocate position here, for the most part.)
What about things that are no longer in print? Let's say I want to play Chainmail: Rules for Medieval Miniatures (that is to say, the wargame that eventually turned in to Dungeons and Dragons). The rulebook has been out of print for longer than I've drawn breath. It pretty much solely exists in two places:
1) Neckbearded ones basements
2) A PDF on the internet
This is a situation where I don't think you can really draw a moral compulsion to not pirate. The book is long since out of print, so no game store is losing money from a "lost sale" (even though the impact of piracy on sales is an iffy thing at best, but I digress), no publisher is losing money from that lost sale, and no author is missing out on royalties.

I think if we step far beyond this, we go in to fundamental problems with the copyright system itself, and whether or not legally wrong and morally wrong have to be the same thing, philosophically.

[keithb]

How can you justify printouts when they clearly offend just about every game store worker who sees them?

How can you rationalize that it's cool to pirate on a easily parsed public forum?

As an earlier poster said, it's a privilege, not a right.  Do you consider it a right to have access to those rules?

I watched Danger Planet close and never re-open.  That's depressed my gamer cred. *gang sign*

*all you's used are royal you's.

I don't think it is that obvious that is does bother all gamestore workers.  I think they are happy to see a sizeable community that regularly spend time/money at their store.  I think it is a privilege that GW gets to stay in business making toys and they should be reminded of that fact.  I consider it a right to pay fair value for a product, and a right to refuse to do so.  This is a unique case where in order to use the armies that I have already purchased I am required to make an additional purchase.  I may feel this is not at fair value and refuse to pay.  I am an adult and can potentially take the risks of obtaining it is a less than legal fashion If I so choose and I can discuss it on a public forum if I want, the say way I can talk about whether or not I wear a seat belt in my car or drive faster than the speed limit.  If the moderators of said forum take issue with my posts I have every expectation that they will tell me and I would cease to discuss it on said forum.  To date, they have not.  So what is -your- problem with it?


Danger planet (and a lot of other stores) closed for a lot of reasons, I assure you PDF theft was not a contributing factor.  Rent being raised along with most stores not being run as well as BG were a much, much more important issue.

[NateT]

First of all, addressing privilege v. right, from Webster's:
priv•i•lege   /ˈprɪvəlɪdʒ, ˈprɪvlɪdʒ/ Show Spelled [priv-uh-lij, priv-lij] Show IPA noun, verb, priv•i•leged, priv•i•leg•ing. 
noun
1. a right, immunity, or benefit enjoyed only by a person beyond the advantages of most: the privileges of the very rich.
2. a special right, immunity, or exemption granted to persons in authority or office to free them from certain obligations or liabilities: the privilege of a senator to speak in Congress without danger of a libel suit.
3. a grant to an individual, corporation, etc., of a special right or immunity, under certain conditions.
4. the principle or condition of enjoying special rights or immunities.
5. any of the rights common to all citizens under a modern constitutional government: We enjoy the privileges of a free people.

It's neither a privilege or a right.  It's a business proposition.  Not everything has to be constitutional law!  Buy this book, and these models, play this game.  It’s not a privilege in any sense, where GW is goodly enough to allow you to touch their products and play their game.  The one sense that statement is right is that BG is goodly enough to allow us to play there and for that, we thank them, essentially, with our purchases. 

Anyway, it’s a moot point, as I have never seen anyone do it.  Never.  So I can’t vouch for employees looking aghast and horrified if someone shows up with them.   Actually, that’s not true!  I saw someone bring in a printed (photocopied?) page from the Tau codex for Tanksgiving… I think he said he didn’t have the current Tau book, but wanted to try out his friends’ old Hammerhead for funsies.  I didn’t grill him on his nefarious deed, perhaps I should have!  Or perhaps, having a great time, he started buying an army that very night…

I was just speaking from the point of view that it is important to be inclusive, and the best way to get someone to leave/never join our very expensive community is to hit them with this level of vitriol and treat them as a pariah.

As to search results or what ever, I would think a google search of “pirating” +”warhammer” isn’t going to return loads of BG forum posts…

Anyway, Game Haven was well supported by myself, Keith, Bill, Jake, and many other great guys, and closed for personal/landlord reasons.  We all gravitated toward BG, so now you all get the *privilege*  ;)of losing to one of Billy’s fantastically painted 40K armies, or Jake’s brilliantly converted Fantasy forces.   

I just wanted to say that reactions should be tempered to the situation.  It’s a good way to live life.  Perhaps I have stuck my nose into an existing issue, as reactions to anything Keith posts seem to be… heated?  But why the passive aggressive gay-bashing?  That’s not very cool…

Damn, long one!

[keithb]

ah Nate, I wasn't sure that was you.   

How is everything?

[the_trooper]

The point is moot as it's over everyone's head regardless of the amount of times I lay it out.

Also, Webster's is junk, OED for life.

[keithb]

No it isn't.  I just completely disagree with you.

Pretty awesome to just assume people who disagree don't/can't understand you.  Well done.

[the_trooper]

It is completely lost on you.  No need to be angry, dude.

EDIT:

It's completely natural to be mad when you are confused.  It's normal.

[NateT]

I think we can all agree that the only real online dictionary of record is urbandictionary.com

But I'm with Keith on this one.  Why do you assume you are just "laying out" an argument that is over our heads?  I have understood that one broader point you keep tossing out there, and have agreed in part and dissented in part.  Basically, I think some of the online availablity of rules is a temptation, true, to not "spend the money," but it can also be a tool to get people into the game, instead of exclude them.  Anyway, your opinion is equally valid as mine, but not particularly "over" anyone's head... no matter how often you repeat it.  Which isn't really the best way to converse, is it?  Just "laying out" the same thoughts over and over?

Anyway, yeah Keith it's me!  As if you could not tell by the long-winded and overly verbose posts...

I am... great.  I am starting a new career next month, literally JUST now handed in my letter of resignation at the lab where I work.  Ah.  The sweet smell of FREEDOM!

Edited: spelling... it was a typo, I swear, not a sign of cognitive disorder...

[Ed]

thread to long didn't read.

[NateT]

(This) Thread (is) too long, (I) didn't read (it).

Sorry, now I'm the jerk 

Summary:
     Some stuff...
     A few things, including name calling and innuendo...
     The inevitable conclusion that arguing over the internet is a fool's errand.

Anyway, you get it, we are clearly dunces instead of people of a different mind or experience. 

[Ed]

I can't proxy magic cards at battlegrounds?

[keithb]

It is completely lost on you.  No need to be angry, dude.

EDIT:

It's completely natural to be mad when you are confused.  It's normal.

I am not at all angry, it seems you are being rather petty though.  So I am done with this discussion, but if you decide to grow up a little, just post "I'm an adult now" in this thread and I'll come back. 

[the_trooper]

It is completely lost on you.  No need to be angry, dude.

EDIT:

It's completely natural to be mad when you are confused.  It's normal.

I am not at all angry, it seems you are being rather petty though.  So I am done with this discussion, but if you decide to grow up a little, just post "I'm an adult now" in this thread and I'll come back. 

Learning from Dave, I see.  Personal attacks when compassion is shown.