Author Topic: Theft and piracy  (Read 23954 times)

the_trooper

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Theft and piracy
« on: June 20, 2012, 08:24:15 PM »
Is illegal.  Talking about doing it on a place of business who has something to lose by you doing so is considered in poor taste. 

Please defend your positions if you think it is not.

jfoodmaster

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Re: Theft and piracy
« Reply #1 on: June 21, 2012, 10:26:20 AM »
You don't know what it's like to be a struggling college/high schooler with little to no income! The models are so expensive. GW is just a money grubbing company. I love the game and the fluff, but I can't afford the books AND models. I'm just gonna use green army men as IG. If you don't wanna play me, I don't care.

Ack! I just channelled a typical Internet idiot. Whew. I'm so tired! Those aren't my actual feelings on the subject :)

King of the Elves

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Re: Theft and piracy
« Reply #2 on: June 21, 2012, 10:47:50 AM »
You don't know what it's like to be a struggling college/high schooler with little to no income! The models are so expensive. GW is just a money grubbing company. I love the game and the fluff, but I can't afford the books AND models. I'm just gonna use green army men as IG. If you don't wanna play me, I don't care.

Ack! I just channelled a typical Internet idiot. Whew. I'm so tired! Those aren't my actual feelings on the subject :)

 Well i do know what it's like to be that high schooler with little to no income, because I am a high schooler with little to no income. But I alyways buy my own models/ books/ paints, my parents don't pay for them... I do. As far as my views on books and piracy are concerned, if they sell it in the store/ if you have the money for it... buy the book. Now take for example when i was starting my eldar i got the battlebox from BG but at the time I did not have the cash for a real codex so I got it from a "friend" (I never played any games with it though). Now I just got my pay check on monday and one of the first things i bought was a new eldar codex. GW sucks, it really does, but the thing is when you got into this hobby you knew you where going to have to pull out your wallets. In short: If you pirate things 1) dont bring it to play games/ bring it in BG 2) Don't talk about pirating things on the forums (unless there it's a thread like this) and 3) If you got the money/ if your going to get money buy the book.

 (Those may have not been Jfood's real views but those are my real views)
« Last Edit: June 21, 2012, 10:50:31 AM by King of the Elves »

GossWeapon

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Re: Theft and piracy
« Reply #3 on: June 22, 2012, 03:42:09 AM »
Being poor as ten f***s,  I can tell you, GW is not expensive, and I even bought (and sold) two huge armies without even having a job!  But seriously, if you pirate something be tactful, every one of us at one point or another has looked at some bootleg stuff or pirated music, what makes a difference is that (even if you bring it to the store) you do not have to flaunt it.  I'm sure this is some counter to some ridiculous thread involving the internet, a seventeen year old, too much TAB soda, and all that good stuff.  Just calm down everyone!
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keithb

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Re: Theft and piracy
« Reply #4 on: June 22, 2012, 01:10:49 PM »
Is illegal.  Talking about doing it on a place of business who has something to lose by you doing so is considered in poor taste. 

Please defend your positions if you think it is not.

BG survives because of its community, not any one Game company.  When a game company decides to rip off its customer base, why should the community not discuss alternatives, legal or otherwise?  The only way BG loses, is if we specifically order items and then don't pay for them (Dave Goss).

Battleground

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Re: Theft and piracy
« Reply #5 on: June 22, 2012, 01:47:47 PM »
Is illegal.  Talking about doing it on a place of business who has something to lose by you doing so is considered in poor taste. 

Please defend your positions if you think it is not.

BG survives because of its community, not any one Game company.  When a game company decides to rip off its customer base, why should the community not discuss alternatives, legal or otherwise?  The only way BG loses, is if we specifically order items and then don't pay for them (Dave Goss).

BG definitely relies on the support of its community. Contrary to what people might think (because we must also be a business), the primary goal of Battleground is community building. We want to build a place where people go to play the games they love and be with other people who want the same. We want to see friendships created and flourish. It's what we want to do. It's our "belief." [ that last part is for you, Chase ;) ]

Intellectual property theft is a separate issue, I think. Obviously, we don't want people heralding that they pirated this or that item, that BG sells, on our forums and explain to others how they can or should do likewise. Illegally acquiring something which is intended for sale because you think it costs too much money seems wrong to me. Games Workshop products are indeed expensive when compared to other companies doing similar things for far less retail cost, but I don't equate this to ripping people off. I reserve that label for companies that don't give you what you think you're purchasing, or organizations that promise lies in order to get money from you. If I purchased a model from GW and it didn't contain the parts it was supposed to, and after seeking recourse GW told me to go pound sand, that would be ripping me off.

A person can choose NOT to purchase an item if they feel it's too expensive. Saying, "I want this item, but because it is too expensive I will find a way to get it without paying for it," is theft, whether it feels like it or not. There are loads of ways to justify it, and an equal amount of ways to weigh it against other kinds of theft, but it doesn't erase it as theft.

The ambiguity of this kind of theft is that another person isn't deprived of a physical object. For example, if I want a Lamborghini, but feel as though the car manufacturer is ripping me off by charging too much, and I choose to steal one, someone else is now missing a Lamborghini. If I find a pdf version of a rulebook that I feel a company is charging too much money for, nobody will be waking up to a missing pdf in the morning. In this way, it sort of seems like a "lesser theft." Theoretically, all you've done is deprive someone of a potential sale for a product that you obviously want.

If we're grading crimes, it's better than stealing a Lamborghini, but worse than a starving kid stealing an apple. You don't need the item. You just want it, but don't want to pay for it.

I am using the word "you" figuratively in this post, not directing it at anyone, and I'm arguing only because I love to argue. :)
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the_trooper

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Re: Theft and piracy
« Reply #6 on: June 22, 2012, 03:03:17 PM »
Is illegal.  Talking about doing it on a place of business who has something to lose by you doing so is considered in poor taste. 

Please defend your positions if you think it is not.

BG survives because of its community, not any one Game company.  When a game company decides to rip off its customer base, why should the community not discuss alternatives, legal or otherwise?  The only way BG loses, is if we specifically order items and then don't pay for them (Dave Goss).

Play more warmachine / hordes, don't talk about / condone piracy.  Play older editions of 40k.  Play something on that infinity game set.. There are many alternatives that are acceptable.  Hell, just use it for the modelling aspect.

Showing up with a pirated, non fair use copy of a rule book is like showing up and drinking someone else's beer without bringing any of your own.  Sure, you can do it but it's not cool.

GW is being lame about things.  What am I going to do about it?  Well, I'm going to play more warmachine and continue to do so.  Voting with your wallet does not mean voting with a digital knapsack.

keithb

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Re: Theft and piracy
« Reply #7 on: June 22, 2012, 03:56:23 PM »
Certainly both of you bring up very valid points.

Do you both feel exactly the same way in regards to the music industry circa 1996-2005 or the movie rental industry in roughly the same period?

My comments in regards to 40k in particular as this.  I have over a certain period of time, purchased, assembled, and painted an army for 40k.  I have spent a lot of time and money in doing so.  I also enjoy playing in tournaments/organized events.  What are the chances that Battleground games, or any store locally will continue to run warhammer 40k tournaments/events in the current edition?  VERY LOW to NON EXISTENT.   Thus, I am required to purchase the new rules in order to keep playing this game I have already invested time/money into this and it would be foolish/a shame for me to throw away all that time and money over a new rule-set.   In short, the edition change rule books are one of the few purchases GW can basically force on you, and they gouge you for it. 

It is always just about something you want(to continue playing a game), but this is something required to play something I already have.  The solution to just "play something else" will also cost the average gamer money, and a lot more money than just buying the 40k rulebook.

Would you really have an issue with playing me if I used a print out of the main rulebook for myself?  Would it really be like me taking your beer?

King of the Elves

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Re: Theft and piracy
« Reply #8 on: June 22, 2012, 04:13:46 PM »
Sure the rulebooks are expensive, but there are ways of getting them for la very low cost. Take for example when I wanted to play WHFB I got the Island of Blood rulebook for $10 instead of paying $85 for the "real rulebook" You can wait a couple of months (around sept) and get the rulebook for low cost out of the starter kit.

the_trooper

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Re: Theft and piracy
« Reply #9 on: June 22, 2012, 04:15:27 PM »
Would you really have an issue with playing me if I used a print out of the main rulebook for myself?  Would it really be like me taking your beer?

If we were in a game store (I cared about), yes.  If we were anywhere else, no.

EDIT:

Yes, my views on this are a double, arguably triple standard.

keithb

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Re: Theft and piracy
« Reply #10 on: June 22, 2012, 04:38:05 PM »
Sure the rulebooks are expensive, but there are ways of getting them for la very low cost. Take for example when I wanted to play WHFB I got the Island of Blood rulebook for $10 instead of paying $85 for the "real rulebook" You can wait a couple of months (around sept) and get the rulebook for low cost out of the starter kit.

Yes, some people buy these sets and break them out into parts and sell on ebay.

To get the book from GW would have cost you over 100$.

keithb

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Re: Theft and piracy
« Reply #11 on: June 22, 2012, 04:40:11 PM »
Would you really have an issue with playing me if I used a print out of the main rulebook for myself?  Would it really be like me taking your beer?

If we were in a game store (I cared about), yes.  If we were anywhere else, no.

EDIT:

Yes, my views on this are a double, arguably triple standard.

Is it just about the print out (or whatever pdf on a tablet/phone) being physically in the store.
I never bought a 5th ed book.  By the time I got into it, it was already established and I borrowed one from a friend to learn the rules.  Would you not play me because in a BG store simply because I didn't buy one(at all).  Or should I have to have purchased a book from BG in your opinion to use a book in the store?

the_trooper

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Re: Theft and piracy
« Reply #12 on: June 22, 2012, 04:45:13 PM »

Is it just about the print out (or whatever pdf on a tablet/phone) being physically in the store.
 

Pretty much this.  I have no issues with fair use stuff- electronic backups up things.

Also, condoning the action in a public way is also it.

NateT

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Re: Theft and piracy
« Reply #13 on: June 22, 2012, 06:17:15 PM »
Interesting topic.  I will say that, in a way, intellectual property is one of the stickiest problems the law and morality face today.  GW has a product that they want to sell for a set price, a set price I find way too high.  They coerce me, in a way, because I want to continue using the thousands of dollars of product I already bought from them.  I resist and say, "Screw it!  Everythings free on the Internet, SUCKERS!"  And feel perfectly justified in doing so, as I feel I have paid my dues.

This is a rational, appealing argument, but one I do not consider moral.  I know I am doing a wrong, and illegal, act.  Don't care much though, as I will still buy many an item (even GW stuff) at my local store.  Indeed, any gaming monies, which included the 75 bucks for the book, are going to Battlegrounds anyway... I might as well direct deposit it on an account!  So long as no one start posting directions on how to do it, I don't even think it's particularly taboo or "classless" to talk about. 

Besides, I might check out the book online, maybe even print some handy pages... because I have a dark angels army... and that starter with mini-rulebook is mine, all mine, I tell you!  But, I need to wait until September...

Benjamin

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Re: Theft and piracy
« Reply #14 on: June 22, 2012, 06:44:38 PM »
We should steal everything from everyone all the time.