i need to complain

[JakeM]

But not about the new empire book as you might have expected. I haven't seen that yet, so ill complain about it later. (a laser cannon, really?)

I have a serious issue with the new ETC rules. They suck! First of all why do dwarfs get three cannons, but empire only gets two? Hasn't anyone noticed how much beter dwarfs are at hand to hand then empire and their characters are far beter then empire characters, yet they constantly get a pass when it comes to reatrictons. They get two grudge throwers, empire gets one helstrom. Really? Seriously? Someone please do the math for me on the number of wounds each war machine dose. Remember the dwarf one can get st 5 and re-rolls on the scared dice. The empire one is strength 5 and a large template, but its super unreliable. Not to mention the dwarfs are stuborn!

Why do people still think wood elves are so bad? People are wining tournaments or placing high with them. They don't need two hundred extra points. Walk acrost the table at 45 glade guard and 8 tree kin backed up by q tree man and a level 4 life wizard and then tell me they need extra points.

Ok that's enough....

[keithb]

I imagine dwarves get more warmachines because they don't have access to magic,  Which I think is fair.

WE are still T3 guys with like, no save.  I do think they need some kind of boost.

[Hankin]

I agree in concept with etc, but what the idea ia not just to balance the game, it is to change the meta away from the easy mode or over the top stuff.  I do think dwarves should be way up there pgiven the below 25% rule for vps as they have a tough time finishing units, but can get big expensive blocks running and/or whittles down.  The magic thing is true, but they can bring 3 scrolls... And extra dice and stealing dice (faced an army at colonial like that).  Empire does have mortars which are as good as grudge throwers point for point. (Old book Given armor peirce and str).

The issue is they nerf casting and the strong lores, while giving magic D armies more bonuses.  It is only a draft of the rules, I expect it to change again.

[JakeM]

Regarding dwaves, what josh said.

As for Wood elves. I think they are under rated. They have elements of the army that are soft shooting units that hit fairly hard then they have harder hand to hand units, that also hit fairly hard. you can't say they are a T3 army with no save. That's true for some things, but ignores half their book. Dryads, tree kin, and tree men are all good saves and T.

[Khrimson Death]

If dryads were not skirmishers, i think they would be a solid book, thats the only thing they are missing is a rank and file unit that can win a combat reliably. Then again like you said, wood elf players are finding ways to win without one.

My only gripe about the dwarves is the str5 stone thrower with the re roll rune. especially since you can take 2 of them. I have lost games on turn 1 to them before. They do get a natural dispel, and can generate extra dispel dice, i am fine with all that. Its 3 scrolls and the stealing the dice that gets a bit chincy. I think a new book would solve that, but for time being i would be happy if they just limited them to 1 scroll like everyone else is and let them generate there +3 d dice... idk, i face dwarves almost every week and can count the number of spells i get of in a game on one finger. suicide casting is the only reliable way to get things done it seems and thats not always  the best choice.

That empire laser magnifier thing is just plain dumb. whoever designed that has no sense of realism on a fantasy level. If i wanted a laser beam, i would play 40k still

[JakeM]

It wasn't easy, but I got the empire book. I wanted to give it a chance even after reading all the hate its geting online, but its pretty bad. I keep re-reading it thinking I must have missed something.

It has a few cool things. Like detatchments, warrior priests, demi griphon knights and the magic items are pretty good. It's just that everything falls a little short of being good enough. The core of the army just dosnt have the ability to stand up to fighting armys. The shooting units are under effective and horribly over priced. 9 points for an empire hand gunner! 100 points for a strength 2 mortar! The army can do some tricks, but at the end of the day it dosnt have a way of winning.

I'm going to make a list and if I can get the day off ill play it at the next BG tourney. After that I expect them to get put in a box in the back of my closest untill 2022.

[King of the Elves]

Coming from a wood elf player, they really don't need the extra 200 points. When your talking about glade guard and thier T, it's pretty bad & same with thier close combat. But that's what dryads, tree men, and eagles are for! It is nice having the extra points but bottom line do they need them, my answer would be no.

[Poo the Great]

thats why i vote we all stop playing 8th and play some good old 6th edition :p

[Khrimson Death]

I Saw some of the empire book and noticed that the price of every empire troop went up by a point? why? they took away an initiative on the swordsmen and made them more expensive? I thought there core choices were resonably priced already, however they usually fold to the first t4 unit they run into. This is a sad time for the empire indeed.

[JakeM]

They gave them a way to make multiple units stubborn, they added stubborn knights and they gave us coldblooded on break checks.

In other words they said. " your never going to win combat, but at least you won't run."

[keithb]

No no, they said "Take spearmen, make stubborn checks until you get Okkam's Mindrazor off, win!"

P.S. we lowered the strength of mortars because of the withering, but it is still a good combo!

[NateT]

I don't know much about this current debate... but I like the wizard-laser mobile.  It's cool medival-magic tech-fantasy stuff.  Just my two cents...

[JakeM]

No no, they said "Take spearmen, make stubborn checks until you get Okkam's Mindrazor off, win!"

P.S. we lowered the strength of mortars because of the withering, but it is still a good combo!

Giant unit of spears with giant detachments of halberds. Lore of shadow. That's pretty much how me and every other empire player has to play now.

[Jim]

No no, they said "Take spearmen, make stubborn checks until you get Okkam's Mindrazor off, win!"

P.S. we lowered the strength of mortars because of the withering, but it is still a good combo!

Giant unit of spears with giant detachments of halberds. Lore of shadow. That's pretty much how me and every other empire player has to play now.

It's funny that you say that, since the current ETC only allows 4PD to be used with the lore of Shadow.   

Speaking of which, I really have mixed feelings with the current ETC rules.  Though after reading the comments from the ETC teams, I'm more inclined to be against the latest draft.  So I may say some stuff that those guys have already said more or less.  I feel like they are over comping with the non-8th ed armies which really limits what someone can take.  IMO, by nerfing the shooting & magic phase, they are basically forcing the players to make more primarily melee type armies, which really takes away from the uniqueness of warhammer.  In a nutshell, I think the latest rules are trying to turn 8th ed into 40k or 7th ed in terms of what you can and can't take.

I agree with you guys in regards with the additional points certain armies (i.e. Wood Elves) get, I don't think any army should receive additional points, any army can win with experience (any a bit of luck with the dice    ), as we've seen in the past LL tourney.  I don't think it really balances the army out and can hurt the reputation of the army.

Here's the link again that Rhys provided early if anyone hasn't a had a chance to look at the ETC 2012 2nd draft rules and the comments.  http://warhammer.org.uk/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=99850

[MM3791]

I like the latest Empire book, it has a balance of all types of gameplay and seems to be more infantry centric, with ranks of men being lead by inspiring commanders. Infantry cost went up due to the new buffs they receive from command bonuses(as previously mentioned). This IMO fits better with the empire theme.

Yes Empire gunline was toned down but I think it was for the best, as gunline armies are really boring to play with and against. Yes, Dwarves have better warmachines but Empire have diverse magic, cheaper troops, as well as access to fast, hard hitting units like knights and demigriffins. They still have better firepower then most armies but now it is more as a support tool rather then nuking things to death.

I like the new army and intend to make a Celtic themed force made from Amber Wizards and Militia.. new wizard models are awesome!!!